Pathfinder 1E Mass combat in Pathfinder

[Steel_Wind]

I'm actually just about to sit down and finalize the fast-play mass combat rules for Pathfinder Adventure Path #35. These rules aren't going to be anything to challenge Warhammer or Battlesystem or anything like that for complexity—they won't even really use miniatures. The hope is that the rules work to quickly resolve mass battles in a way that's fun but not too complex. The focus of Kingmaker, like all of Pathfinder's adventures, is supposed to remain on the micro level, focusing on the PCs and their characters, after all.

We DO keep talking about doing a big Mass Combat book for Pathfinder, and if we some day do that, it'll certainly be a more complex version. But the version that'll be in Kingmaker will be fast and quick and (hopefully!) fun.

I am looking forward to Mass Combat rules that work with, say, 50-500 or 600 or so combatants. Stuff I can use minis for - and which are small enough that I feel the PCs individual contributions can still have a real effect on the Battlefield. I might go there once or twice during a campaign for a huge pivotal crescendo moment of the campaign.

Beyond that - see Heroes of Battle below for praise in a more traditional setting. A Heroes of Battle style Advrnture Path - essentially a Fantasy War backdrop with a STORY, channeling The Black Company throughout the Adventure Path, would be a praiseworthy Paizo product line and potentially just as innovative as we all hope Kingmaker will be!

The scale of Cry Havoc (especially) and Fields of Blood was a little too large for my tastes. The Mass Combat rules in the Miniatures Handbook were closer to what I preferred, but seemed a little ... lacking.

Everybody looks for something different. That happens to be my preference. I really have tried them all looking for what worked for me in the context of my campaigns.

I would also like to take the time to wave a flag and express admiration for Dave Noonan's Heroes of Battle. It really was one of the most innovative books in the entire 3E line. His flowcharting and mission design against the backdrop of war was, in a word, brilliant. And it was actually original. Given the derviative nature of most of the later 3E series, that's saying something.

That's a well I would love to revisit in Pathfinder. Best of all, rules expansions like that add to the Pathfinder system without much chance of breaking anything vital to the game balance. That's not a small point, in my estimation.

Note: For those who missed Heroes of Battle, essentially the book gave rules for mission design and flowcharting the impact of smaller scale Player Character "military style missions" as part of a campaign which featured epic fantasy warfare. Much of the inspiration for the book is in fantasy literature and other games - especially Glen Cook's The Black Company series and the Myth strategy games from Bungie back-in-the-day, before they went Halo happy. That has always been a rich context for heroic adventuring that tends not to be highlighted in most FRPG products over the decades. I, for one, would LOVE to see that gap "filled".

 

[James Jacobs]

I'm curious how ultimately the PCs will be handled in mass combat. There is always the trade-off of involving the PCs as commanders: do they retain all their nuanced flavour and stats and possibley overwhelm the system, or do they become simplified stat blocks like the other units in the battle? I seem to remember that 1st edition handled it slightly better than 2nd Edition, but that was when I had the time/energy to invest in learning the systems...

PCs won't have a huge presence in mass combats. They could serve as the general of an army and grant some bonuses to the army, but when we have big battles in this AP, the focus is on the armies clashing, not the PCs. This is another reason we're skewing the mass combat toward the simple and fast end of the scale; we want the game to be able to resolve these battles quickly.

The adventure will feature many opportunities for the PCs to directly affect the outcome of battles, usually in the form of smaller-scale battles against boss-monsters or enemy leaders with the big battle going on in the background—we'll probably set it up so the PCs have their fight, and depending on the outcome that'll give bonuses or penalties to the mass combat that's going on simultaneously.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Mass Combat - SPOILERS

SPOILERS for the Savage Tide Adventure Path:
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I devised and ran with a mass combat when I ran the pirate invasion of a certain colony in the Savage Tide Adventure Path.

I'll repost what I came up with below, since I have it saved in a text file:

The notable NPCs in Farshore are:

Lavinia Vanderboren ar2/swa6
Lord Manthalay Merevanchi ar3/ftr5
Professor Hevrik Aldwattle wiz5/exp2, craft wand
vesserin catherly, clr6
Herbalist Telda Syren, exp4
Militia Captain Ulvar Kabbanja ftr4
4 clr1 acolytes
Jeran Emerikad wiz2/rog1 (farshore scribe/recordkeeper)
Urol Furol exp3/druid3
Avner Meravanchi ar5/ftr1
Amella Venkalie rog5/ftr1
Redfoot Fiddlebitter, halfling exp3 (potter)
Dranys Sellis, dwarf exp2 (carpenter)
Tehrik Arrelion, Rgr3 (leatherworker/furrier)
Malfus Fairwind, bard3 (tavern owner)
Tavey rog1

Jade Ravens:
Tolin Kientai ranger3/ftr4
Zan Oldavin rog7
Kaskus Kiel druid7, giant crocodile companion
Liamae Sor4/favored soul 3

The adults and older children of Farshore who are not notable NPCs are
either war1's or com1's.
Militia:
31 war1 militiamen
132 com1 commoners (including women and adolescent kids)

Noncombatants:
60 small children

Aid from the Olman villages:

54 Olman war1 warriors
4 Olman war2 seasoned warriors
1 Olman clr 3 w/lizardman zombie
1 Olman war4 war leader

NPCs generally fight in squads of 10:

Organized as follows:
1) PC group
2) Vesserin , his acolytes, and Telda (in reserve healing the
wounded)
3) Lavinia and 9 war1 (+14) ( mw shortspears),
4) Lord Manthalay and 9 war1 (+14) (mw longspears)
5) Militia Captain Ulvar and 9 war1 (+6)
6) Professor Aldwattle, Jeran, and 8 com1 (+10) (spellcasterx2)
7) Urol and 9 com1 (+5) (+6 ranged, MW javelins) (spellcaster)
8) Avner and his drinking buddies (9 com1) (+6)
9) Amella, Tavey, and 8 com1 (+7) (+8 ranged, MW javelins)
10) Redfoot, Dranys, and 8 com1 (+4) (+5 ranged, MW longbows)
11) Tehrik and 9 com1 (+4) (+5 ranged, MW longbows)
12) Malfus and 9 com1 (+6) (due to inspire courage/insp. boost)
13) Tolin Kientai and 9 com1 (+9)
14) Zan Oldavin and 9 com1 (+7)
15 Kaskus Kiel+crocodile and 9 com1 (+14) (gets +7 even if kaskus casts spells) (spellcaster)
16 Liamae and 9 com1 (+7, squad AC is two higher than normal, Liamae is also a healer) (spellcaster)
17 1 war1 and 9 com1 (+1)
18 1 war1 and 9 com1 (+1)
19 1 war1 and 9 com1 (+1)
20 1 war1 and 9 com1 (+1)
21 1 Olman war2 and 9 Olman war1 (+4)
22 1 Olman war2 and 9 Olman war1 (+4)
23 1 Olman war2 and 9 Olman war1 (+4)
24 1 Olman war2 and 9 Olman war1 (+4)
25 1 Olman clr3 and 9 Olman war1 (+4) (spellcaster)
26 1 Olman war4 and 9 Olman war1 (+4)

Farshore commoner squads are AC12 (leather armor). Militia squads are AC 14 (studded leather, shield)
Liamae's commoner squad is AC14 (she casts Mage Armor on all of them from her wand)

Rules:
Each squad takes 10 'hits'. Each hit kills/incapacitates a commoner.
A squad that takes 5 or more hits has to make a morale check or
disperse
For a Morale check need a 10 on a d10, +1 per additional kill, -1 per
lvl of leader

In mass combat, a squad rolls 1d20 plus its Atk bonus and tries to hit
the AC of the opposing squad
If it succeeds, 1 kill in opposing squad, +1 kill for each 5 points by
which it exceeds the AC

A squads attack bonus is +0, +1 per level of the leader, +1 if the
members have MW weapons, +2 if the squad
members are war1's instead of com1's, +1-2 if the leader has an
especially deadly weapon, +2 if the leader has a BAB of 6 or higher

A squad with a spellcasting leader can also use a spell in a round in
addition to fighting, but loses the leaders atk bonus that round

Example:
Lavinia's Squad has an attack bonus of +14, assuming her warriors get
some of the MW weapons
+8 for lavinia's level
+2 for being war1's
+1 for having mw weapons (mw shortspears recovered at the couatl
temple)
+1 for lavinia having a moderately deadly weapon (+1 keen rapier)
+2 for lavinia having a +7 BAB

Let's say they are fighting a squad of pirates, which have AC 14:
One round they attack and roll a 13, +14 = 27, which is 13 over the
other squads AC, inflicting 3 kills

In squad combat, leaders never take damage until their squad flees or
is killed, unless particularly targetted by a spell

A cleric can restore a hit to a squad by casting a CLW or greater spell.


I have the pirates somewhere else. There were a lot of them, about 600 I think. It took 2 8hrs sessions to play out the fight...the pirate ships didn't even make landfall until the beginning of the 2nd session, because my PCs flew out to engage them.

KEn

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Oh, and just to clarify:

I mapped out Farshore and the sea approach on big sheets of easel paper with 1" squares. I had a large scale approach map (where a square was 100ft) and a smaller scale map of farshore (where a square was 30ft).

Each 'squad' was represented by a 1" square of colored construction paper, with its name and attack bonus written on it. hits were marked on the square directly with a pen.

A squad attacked another squad by moving into its square. Ranged units could attack things 2 squares away.

It ended up being a pretty epic battle. The pirates were pretty much destroyed -- only one ship of the original 5 or 6 got aways, and it had taken heavy losses. Farshore lost 40 or so dead I think, with another 60 or so wounded. My metric was that 50% of 'hit's that squads took in battle converted to casualties, with allowances for healing done after battle.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Dimitris]

"We DO keep talking about doing a big Mass Combat book for Pathfinder, and if we some day do that, it'll certainly be a more complex version."

I would like to have such a system for Pathfinder.

 

[SoldierBlue]

Haffrung Helleyes,

Wow. Your description, and the battle you describe, are truly epic. Very cool.

Awesome (in the old biblical sense...)

 

[BaldHero]

This topic just came up last night.

I own, and have used Cry Havoc. With a good deal of DM prep, it is able to perform admirably. It is hard to use on the fly, so any mass combat should be a proper plot point in order to allow the GM to prep as much as needed. I can not see any part of it that would not mesh well with PathFinder.

It does allow the characters to remain mostly autonomous, and still be the heroic focus of the encounters.

I also suggest Heroes of Battle, I am sure it would also mesh well with PF.

Good luck.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Savage Tide battle

Thanks!


The funny thing is, I've been running Savage Tide again on Maptools for a different group for the last year, and we're getting close to the point where I would need to run that battle again. I've been trying to decide if it's even workable in maptools, and how I should do things differently if it isn't.

I definitely think that any mass combat system needs to have

1) counters that get pushed around on a map
2) vastly simplified rules for attack and damage, coupled with morale rules
3) copious notes on 'special cases', IE how spells and PC magic interact with the system.

I would argue that using CHA as a metric of leadership ability in battle is a bad idea. I really wouldn't want to have to tell the CHA 10 Fighter, or his 8 CHA Barbarian friend, that he should really let ElfWhistle the Sorceress lead the troops. It just doesn't ring true to me; plus leadership in battle to me falls clearly in the domain of martial ability, not esoteric sorcery.

Ken

 

[frankthedm]

Each 'squad' was represented by a 1" square of colored construction paper, with its name and attack bonus written on it. hits were marked on the square directly with a pen.

Would counters be useful to you next time you run a scenario like this?

img94.imageshack.us/img94/3177/hobgobunit.png

I hope to see the fully detailed Pathfinder mass combat someday.