Mass Combat: Militray Tactics Old and New!
- Thread starter Leopold
- Start date
Re: Sun Tzu's Art of War
I thought I'd quote some of the concrete advice from Sun Tzu's Art of War, the kind of elements that should play out in a mass-combat game.
From II. WAGING WAR:
1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war,
where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots,
as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand
mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them
a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front,
including entertainment of guests, small items such as
glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor,
will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day.
Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.
13,14. With this loss of substance and exhaustion
of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare,
and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated;
while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses,
breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields,
protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons,
will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one's own store.
From III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM:
4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it
can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets,
movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take
up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over
against the walls will take three months more.
5. The general, unable to control his irritation,
will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants,
with the result that one-third of his men are slain,
while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous
effects of a siege.
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten
to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one,
to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army
into two.
From V. ENERGY:
2. Fighting with a large army under your command
is nowise different from fighting with a small one:
it is merely a question of instituting signs and signals.
From VI. WEAK POINTS AND STRONG:
1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and
awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight;
whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle
will arrive exhausted.
From VII. MANEUVERING:
5. Maneuvering with an army is advantageous;
with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.
7. Thus, if you order your men to roll up their
buff-coats, and make forced marches without halting day
or night, covering double the usual distance at a stretch,
doing a hundred LI in order to wrest an advantage,
the leaders of all your three divisions will fall into
the hands of the enemy.
8. The stronger men will be in front, the jaded
ones will fall behind, and on this plan only one-tenth
of your army will reach its destination.
9. If you march fifty LI in order to outmaneuver
the enemy, you will lose the leader of your first division,
and only half your force will reach the goal.
10. If you march thirty LI with the same object,
two-thirds of your army will arrive.
11. We may take it then that an army without its
baggage-train is lost; without provisions it is lost;
without bases of supply it is lost.
23. The Book of Army Management says: On the field
of battle, the spoken word does not carry far enough:
hence the institution of gongs and drums. Nor can ordinary
objects be seen clearly enough: hence the institution
of banners and flags.
24. Gongs and drums, banners and flags, are means
whereby the ears and eyes of the host may be focused
on one particular point.
25. The host thus forming a single united body,
is it impossible either for the brave to advance alone,
or for the cowardly to retreat alone. This is the art
of handling large masses of men.
26. In night-fighting, then, make much use of signal-fires
and drums, and in fighting by day, of flags and banners,
as a means of influencing the ears and eyes of your army.
33. It is a military axiom not to advance uphill
against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill.
That's a start. Those excerpts come from the first seven chapters.
I thought I'd quote some of the concrete advice from Sun Tzu's Art of War, the kind of elements that should play out in a mass-combat game.
From II. WAGING WAR:
1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war,
where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots,
as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand
mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them
a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front,
including entertainment of guests, small items such as
glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor,
will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day.
Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.
13,14. With this loss of substance and exhaustion
of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare,
and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated;
while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses,
breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields,
protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons,
will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one's own store.
From III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM:
4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it
can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets,
movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take
up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over
against the walls will take three months more.
5. The general, unable to control his irritation,
will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants,
with the result that one-third of his men are slain,
while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous
effects of a siege.
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten
to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one,
to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army
into two.
From V. ENERGY:
2. Fighting with a large army under your command
is nowise different from fighting with a small one:
it is merely a question of instituting signs and signals.
From VI. WEAK POINTS AND STRONG:
1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and
awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight;
whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle
will arrive exhausted.
From VII. MANEUVERING:
5. Maneuvering with an army is advantageous;
with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.
7. Thus, if you order your men to roll up their
buff-coats, and make forced marches without halting day
or night, covering double the usual distance at a stretch,
doing a hundred LI in order to wrest an advantage,
the leaders of all your three divisions will fall into
the hands of the enemy.
8. The stronger men will be in front, the jaded
ones will fall behind, and on this plan only one-tenth
of your army will reach its destination.
9. If you march fifty LI in order to outmaneuver
the enemy, you will lose the leader of your first division,
and only half your force will reach the goal.
10. If you march thirty LI with the same object,
two-thirds of your army will arrive.
11. We may take it then that an army without its
baggage-train is lost; without provisions it is lost;
without bases of supply it is lost.
23. The Book of Army Management says: On the field
of battle, the spoken word does not carry far enough:
hence the institution of gongs and drums. Nor can ordinary
objects be seen clearly enough: hence the institution
of banners and flags.
24. Gongs and drums, banners and flags, are means
whereby the ears and eyes of the host may be focused
on one particular point.
25. The host thus forming a single united body,
is it impossible either for the brave to advance alone,
or for the cowardly to retreat alone. This is the art
of handling large masses of men.
26. In night-fighting, then, make much use of signal-fires
and drums, and in fighting by day, of flags and banners,
as a means of influencing the ears and eyes of your army.
33. It is a military axiom not to advance uphill
against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill.
That's a start. Those excerpts come from the first seven chapters.
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Re: Re: Sun Tzu's Art of War
From IX. THE ARMY ON THE MARCH:
1. Sun Tzu said: We come now to the question of
encamping the army, and observing signs of the enemy.
Pass quickly over mountains, and keep in the neighborhood
of valleys.
2. Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb
heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.
3. After crossing a river, you should get far away
from it.
4. When an invading force crosses a river in its
onward march, do not advance to meet it in mid-stream.
It will be best to let half the army get across,
and then deliver your attack.
5. If you are anxious to fight, you should not go
to meet the invader near a river which he has to cross.
6. Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing
the sun. Do not move up-stream to meet the enemy.
So much for river warfare.
7. In crossing salt-marshes, your sole concern
should be to get over them quickly, without any delay.
8. If forced to fight in a salt-marsh, you should
have water and grass near you, and get your back
to a clump of trees. So much for operations in salt-marches.
9. In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible
position with rising ground to your right and on your rear,
so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind.
So much for campaigning in flat country.
11. All armies prefer high ground to low and sunny
places to dark.
12. If you are careful of your men, and camp on hard
ground, the army will be free from disease of every kind,
and this will spell victory.
13. When you come to a hill or a bank, occupy the
sunny side, with the slope on your right rear.
Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers
and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.
14. When, in consequence of heavy rains up-country,
a river which you wish to ford is swollen and flecked
with foam, you must wait until it subsides.
15. Country in which there are precipitous cliffs
with torrents running between, deep natural hollows,
confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses,
should be left with all possible speed and not approached.
16. While we keep away from such places, we should
get the enemy to approach them; while we face them,
we should let the enemy have them on his rear.
17. If in the neighborhood of your camp there should
be any hilly country, ponds surrounded by aquatic grass,
hollow basins filled with reeds, or woods with thick
undergrowth, they must be carefully routed out and searched;
for these are places where men in ambush or insidious
spies are likely to be lurking.
21. Movement amongst the trees of a forest shows that the
enemy is advancing. The appearance of a number of screens
in the midst of thick grass means that the enemy wants to make us suspicious.
22. The rising of birds in their flight is the sign
of an ambuscade. Startled beasts indicate that a sudden
attack is coming.
23. When there is dust rising in a high column,
it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low,
but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach
of infantry. When it branches out in different directions,
it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood.
A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army
is encamping.
Unfortunately, Sun Tzu doesn't always explain the rationale behind his advice.
From IX. THE ARMY ON THE MARCH:
1. Sun Tzu said: We come now to the question of
encamping the army, and observing signs of the enemy.
Pass quickly over mountains, and keep in the neighborhood
of valleys.
2. Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb
heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.
3. After crossing a river, you should get far away
from it.
4. When an invading force crosses a river in its
onward march, do not advance to meet it in mid-stream.
It will be best to let half the army get across,
and then deliver your attack.
5. If you are anxious to fight, you should not go
to meet the invader near a river which he has to cross.
6. Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing
the sun. Do not move up-stream to meet the enemy.
So much for river warfare.
7. In crossing salt-marshes, your sole concern
should be to get over them quickly, without any delay.
8. If forced to fight in a salt-marsh, you should
have water and grass near you, and get your back
to a clump of trees. So much for operations in salt-marches.
9. In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible
position with rising ground to your right and on your rear,
so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind.
So much for campaigning in flat country.
11. All armies prefer high ground to low and sunny
places to dark.
12. If you are careful of your men, and camp on hard
ground, the army will be free from disease of every kind,
and this will spell victory.
13. When you come to a hill or a bank, occupy the
sunny side, with the slope on your right rear.
Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers
and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.
14. When, in consequence of heavy rains up-country,
a river which you wish to ford is swollen and flecked
with foam, you must wait until it subsides.
15. Country in which there are precipitous cliffs
with torrents running between, deep natural hollows,
confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses,
should be left with all possible speed and not approached.
16. While we keep away from such places, we should
get the enemy to approach them; while we face them,
we should let the enemy have them on his rear.
17. If in the neighborhood of your camp there should
be any hilly country, ponds surrounded by aquatic grass,
hollow basins filled with reeds, or woods with thick
undergrowth, they must be carefully routed out and searched;
for these are places where men in ambush or insidious
spies are likely to be lurking.
21. Movement amongst the trees of a forest shows that the
enemy is advancing. The appearance of a number of screens
in the midst of thick grass means that the enemy wants to make us suspicious.
22. The rising of birds in their flight is the sign
of an ambuscade. Startled beasts indicate that a sudden
attack is coming.
23. When there is dust rising in a high column,
it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low,
but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach
of infantry. When it branches out in different directions,
it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood.
A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army
is encamping.
Unfortunately, Sun Tzu doesn't always explain the rationale behind his advice.
Re: Sun Tzu's Art of War
From X. TERRAIN:
8. With regard to narrow passes, if you can occupy
them first, let them be strongly garrisoned and await
the advent of the enemy.
9. Should the army forestall you in occupying a pass,
do not go after him if the pass is fully garrisoned,
but only if it is weakly garrisoned.
10. With regard to precipitous heights, if you are
beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the
raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up.
11. If the enemy has occupied them before you,
do not follow him, but retreat and try to entice him away.
15. Other conditions being equal, if one force is
hurled against another ten times its size, the result
will be the flight of the former.
19. When a general, unable to estimate the enemy's
strength, allows an inferior force to engage a larger one,
or hurls a weak detachment against a powerful one,
and neglects to place picked soldiers in the front rank,
the result must be rout.
Some of those naturally apply to underground dungeon terrain.
From X. TERRAIN:
8. With regard to narrow passes, if you can occupy
them first, let them be strongly garrisoned and await
the advent of the enemy.
9. Should the army forestall you in occupying a pass,
do not go after him if the pass is fully garrisoned,
but only if it is weakly garrisoned.
10. With regard to precipitous heights, if you are
beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the
raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up.
11. If the enemy has occupied them before you,
do not follow him, but retreat and try to entice him away.
15. Other conditions being equal, if one force is
hurled against another ten times its size, the result
will be the flight of the former.
19. When a general, unable to estimate the enemy's
strength, allows an inferior force to engage a larger one,
or hurls a weak detachment against a powerful one,
and neglects to place picked soldiers in the front rank,
the result must be rout.
Some of those naturally apply to underground dungeon terrain.
From XI. THE NINE SITUATIONS:
1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war recognizes nine varieties of ground:
(1) Dispersive ground; (2) facile ground; (3) contentious ground;
(4) open ground; (5) ground of intersecting highways;
(6) serious ground; (7) difficult ground; (8) hemmed-in ground;
(9) desperate ground.
2. When a chieftain is fighting in his own territory,
it is dispersive ground.
3. When he has penetrated into hostile territory,
but to no great distance, it is facile ground.
4. Ground the possession of which imports great
advantage to either side, is contentious ground.
5. Ground on which each side has liberty of movement
is open ground.
6. Ground which forms the key to three contiguous states,
so that he who occupies it first has most of the Empire
at his command, is a ground of intersecting highways.
7. When an army has penetrated into the heart of a
hostile country, leaving a number of fortified cities
in its rear, it is serious ground.
8. Mountain forests, rugged steeps, marshes and fens--all
country that is hard to traverse: this is difficult ground.
9. Ground which is reached through narrow gorges,
and from which we can only retire by tortuous paths,
so that a small number of the enemy would suffice to crush
a large body of our men: this is hemmed in ground.
10. Ground on which we can only be saved from
destruction by fighting without delay, is desperate ground.
11. On dispersive ground, therefore, fight not.
On facile ground, halt not. On contentious ground,
attack not.
12. On open ground, do not try to block the enemy's way.
On the ground of intersecting highways, join hands
with your allies.
13. On serious ground, gather in plunder.
In difficult ground, keep steadily on the march.
14. On hemmed-in ground, resort to stratagem.
On desperate ground, fight.
15. Those who were called skillful leaders of old knew
how to drive a wedge between the enemy's front and rear;
to prevent co-operation between his large and small divisions;
to hinder the good troops from rescuing the bad,
the officers from rallying their men.
Again, Sun Tzu doesn't give much rationale for his proclamations. I did enjoy #15 though, even if it doesn't give you much advice on how to drive a wedge between enemy units. I guess you have to be a skillful leader...
1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war recognizes nine varieties of ground:
(1) Dispersive ground; (2) facile ground; (3) contentious ground;
(4) open ground; (5) ground of intersecting highways;
(6) serious ground; (7) difficult ground; (8) hemmed-in ground;
(9) desperate ground.
2. When a chieftain is fighting in his own territory,
it is dispersive ground.
3. When he has penetrated into hostile territory,
but to no great distance, it is facile ground.
4. Ground the possession of which imports great
advantage to either side, is contentious ground.
5. Ground on which each side has liberty of movement
is open ground.
6. Ground which forms the key to three contiguous states,
so that he who occupies it first has most of the Empire
at his command, is a ground of intersecting highways.
7. When an army has penetrated into the heart of a
hostile country, leaving a number of fortified cities
in its rear, it is serious ground.
8. Mountain forests, rugged steeps, marshes and fens--all
country that is hard to traverse: this is difficult ground.
9. Ground which is reached through narrow gorges,
and from which we can only retire by tortuous paths,
so that a small number of the enemy would suffice to crush
a large body of our men: this is hemmed in ground.
10. Ground on which we can only be saved from
destruction by fighting without delay, is desperate ground.
11. On dispersive ground, therefore, fight not.
On facile ground, halt not. On contentious ground,
attack not.
12. On open ground, do not try to block the enemy's way.
On the ground of intersecting highways, join hands
with your allies.
13. On serious ground, gather in plunder.
In difficult ground, keep steadily on the march.
14. On hemmed-in ground, resort to stratagem.
On desperate ground, fight.
15. Those who were called skillful leaders of old knew
how to drive a wedge between the enemy's front and rear;
to prevent co-operation between his large and small divisions;
to hinder the good troops from rescuing the bad,
the officers from rallying their men.
Again, Sun Tzu doesn't give much rationale for his proclamations. I did enjoy #15 though, even if it doesn't give you much advice on how to drive a wedge between enemy units. I guess you have to be a skillful leader...
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Leopold
NKL4LYFE
optimizer said:Howdy!
Thanks for the Sun Tzu excerpts. It is indeed interesting and adds to this discussion.
I haven't had a chance to read his Art of War. What is the best translation of it available in printed form?
Thanks.
Mike
pick any one of them, usually the bigger the better. I like the ones that have exerpts on how the use of Sun Tzu's tactics have been utilized over the course of the years. Material like that makes it interesting to see how the tactics of a thousand years ago still applies today.
I bought one that had a red cover with gold lettering. I will look at the author when i get home as it was rather well written and had great notes in it.
Leopold
NKL4LYFE
here is the one i picked up..i found it online:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=52DROKAZF3&isbn=1586635603
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=52DROKAZF3&isbn=1586635603
