Massive Open Content SRD

[Planesdragon]

Index? What are you talking about?

A natural consequence of creating an XML standard for marking Open-Gaming text. A GM, having purchased XML-formatted versions of the five books he's going to loot for his home game, loads them all on his PC, selects the rules and sections he's gonig to use, and adds them all into one file.

This GM then prints out a copy of "his" rulebook, complete with OGC declarations, OGL, and the logos and advertising copy of the publishers he got his rules from. The back of the book contains an index, as expansive or slim as he wants it, and he has a rulebook that he can reference or dog-ear as much as he wants.

A less distant version of the same would have all of the above, but instead of collecting the XML-text from the books he bought, the GM downloads a limited XML format file from each of his publihsers. These abridged files have the heading and subheading information, as well as what lists or markup the publisher wanted to include. Our GM, having selected the half-dozen books he's going to base his next campaign on, gathers the abridged XML for each book and has a single unified index created for his game.

You said that you would be behind the "MassiveSRD" if you saw a point to it beyond mere hoarding of OGC. I just gave you one--a means to encourage GMs to buy your book so they can use it in their own games.

And if the RPGEngine or PRM-XML or MassiveSRD become what I think they should be, we'd have a reverse benefit to this. Once the tools are created for turning the XML into formatted paper, the next step is to make it easy for a game designer to produce the XML. Which means a system of design that enforces structure, bends as you bend the rules, and results not only in a new thing you can sell, but a new hook you can give to smaller fishes you want helping promote your rulebook.

(Not to mention the intermediate step, where a publisher releases one XML file [for free or for pay, just like their book] and they're instantly usable by any campaign-manager or random-character-generator or adventure-o-matic that the customer might use.)

(And, of course, there's the benefit that an XML-standards-based development means that folk who create widgets for your rules will have a harder time making boneheaded mistakes that seem less professional variant and more amatur typo.)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You said that you would be behind the "MassiveSRD" if you saw a point to it beyond mere hoarding of OGC. I just gave you one--a means to encourage GMs to buy your book so they can use it in their own games.

I'm not clear on how this differs from the book that I already sell that GMs can use in their own games.

Unless there's some huge community of folks out there just waiting for my rules to appear in XML format before they feel they can properly "use" them.

Just in case my policy wasn't clear up to this point: No additional fee is required when purchasing a Bad Axe Games rulebook. You may use-- yes, even dog-ear-- your copy in your own games.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Honestly, I think the more realistic reason is that every game designer thinks his way is the best way.

This discussion sparked a discussion elsewhere, and I mentioned how one of the purposes of the OGL was for systems that could be added (i.e. naval battle rules) and reused, streamlining the D20 system overall. The OGL fails in that regard, given how rare it would be for a designer to actually concede that another system is better than something he can come up with. So we get 15 different Naval Battle rules, most of which are ignored by everyone.

In many ways, I think the OGL has failed to crystallize the products that it was originally intended for, leading WotC to do race books and settings. Meanwhile other systems have gone OGL, diluting the D20 system.

It'd be funny to see "OGL Naval Battles" or whatever, incorporating the 15 different system, each in it's own chapter. (though, not for Naval Battles, since I don't want a naval system.

 

[Planesdragon]

I'm not clear on how this differs from the book that I already sell that GMs can use in their own games.

It's easier. It lets a GM spend less of their time wrestling with their rulebook and more of their time either running a game or creating material for their game. Not to mention that it's customizable, extensible, and facilitates the one activity that is common to every roleplaying game I've ever seen--picking and choosing what you want and what you don't want.

And the good part is that no one's asking for a cash investment, and I'm certainly not asking for free product copies to be given out to every child that can roll a die. If you want to help or get behind RPGEngine or PRD-XML, all you need to do is check in on the standard every now and again to let the developers know what would or would not make selling your work easier, and to point the next person who spouts of "we should have a massiving OGC repository!" towards the standard so their effort will go into something that will make a useful tool for the industry and not just a horde of anonymous game rules.

 

[Nellisir]

This discussion sparked a discussion elsewhere, and I mentioned how one of the purposes of the OGL was for systems that could be added (i.e. naval battle rules) and reused, streamlining the D20 system overall. The OGL fails in that regard, given how rare it would be for a designer to actually concede that another system is better than something he can come up with. So we get 15 different Naval Battle rules, most of which are ignored by everyone.

I think it hasn't happened so far, but I don't think it's failed, either. I think we're just starting the real "OGC-Age", where/when reuse becomes common and accepted. It's a slow process (far slower than I certainly expected), but still continuing. I have hopes for the future.

On another note, there's absolutely publishers out there I won't even bother with any more because of their handicapped OGC. Would I like their product? Almost certainly. Will I buy it? No. OGC is important to me as a consumer.

Not tremendously relevant, I know -- I can't recall where I was going with that.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[barsoomcore]

Hi.

First off, thanks, Wulf, for the kind words. I was just joshin' ya, anyways.

I DO think the Grim Tales to Hot Pursuit example is a good one where the license made it so straightforward for both of us to get what we wanted, without any worry or fuss about how to manage the legalities of it all.

Although I have to admit I worry about the OGC declaration in Hot Pursuit: "All game text is OGC" -- I don't find that very clear. I want all the rules and whatnot to be open, but I've got an, er, idiosyncratic writing style that I just can't put aside, so my "game text" tends to be pretty distinctive. Oh well.

I will say that presence of OGC is a concern of mine in products I purchase, though I don't see the point of a "Massive SRD", frankly. I don't want ALL open content available to me. I just want the good stuff, and for that I'll happily pay. But I like it to be open so that I can easily share it with my players, who aren't going to buy it anyway (Wulf: I've sold two copies of Grim Tales to my buddies so far. Any plans to institute an affiliate program? ). Then I can create little websites that give them the rules they need -- chargen stuff, mostly, and any wacky new rules for my latest brainwave of a campaign. but by no means am I slapping up wholesale swathes of content for all to enjoy -- except for my Modern SRD Online, which I am unapologetic about.

 

[reanjr]

True, but what fits in here is would the presence of the SRD cause you to not buy a product you were going to buy?
If you don't buy something you weren't going to buy, it doesn't really harm anything.

If the SRD weren't online I would have bought the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM ages ago. As it stands, I don't have any desire for them at all. $90 revenue lost due to the SRD (though if I had had to purchase them, I would have been an irate consumer).

I'm saying, publishers releasing some of their OGC in an SRD format, after the useful life of that book containing it has run it's course, would be handy.

But if that were par for the course, I'd wait. As it is, I'm still waiting on Unearthed Arcana to hit the SRD. I knew SOMEONE would do it, even if Wizards didn't. If I encountered a company that consistently released SRDs of their main products, I'd learn to wait for it. Unless, of course, I'm purchasing a book for any closed content.

I mean, some of the books that have run their course and are OOP, and the company defends the OGC of it on principle? To me that's sillyness. I think the main moral issue of it, is companies that are making money off of WotC's openness with an SRD, then crippling their own content to not add to the circulation.

I want an M&M SRD, because it will make running an M&M game easier for me. I also want a Grim Tales SRD, so if I use that material, I can make it accessible to the players.

I'd be willing to spend money on an SRD. That might be a model some companies would be willing to look at. For instance, take the PHB as an example. It's $30 in print. I probably wouldn't spend more than about $15 for the book in PDF (I'm not a big PDF fan for various reasons, primarily that I don't have a color laser printer). I'd be willing to spend maybe $5 on the SRD without pretty formatting or pictures (if it was DRMed, though, It'd have to allow me to copy the file pretty freely.)

The players aren't going to buy a rulebook for either one, regardless of SRD or not. I as the GM need to factor the presence or absence of the SRD into whether I purchase the actual book, because I'm not typing up the rules in entirety for my players.

 

[reanjr]

I have no need for such a format. Is this something that I need and I just don't know it yet?

All great technologies are, aren't they?

 

[reanjr]

I'm not clear on how this differs from the book that I already sell that GMs can use in their own games.

Unless there's some huge community of folks out there just waiting for my rules to appear in XML format before they feel they can properly "use" them.

I'm also working on this project, though I don't really care if you or any other publisher furnishes XML versions of their books; in fact, I think it would be too much effort for any real or imagined gain.

But I do see at least one possible benefit (however minor). Most people I know use only 10% or fewer of their OGL books. The reasons are varied, but a couple of the main ones are related the hassle of carrying around 20 books to gaming and referencing through them for that one rule you decided to use from the book. An XML format would allow people to integrate, for instance, the Wound/Vitality system and the SRD to create a new PHB that was identical in all ways to the rules of the original except that Hit Points have been replaced by Wound/Vitality. People could mix and match their rules from all these products they have and find further use from them. Meaning they would be happier with their purchases and purchase more material.

There could even be a way to copy protect the XML file so that publishers were more comfortable with this.

 

[resistor]

Observations

It seems to me that a MassiveSRD would not be definably good or bad for the industry, but rather a shift in its paradigm. Anyone who is familiar with the software industry will know of the open source movement from which the copyleft concept originates. There, the concept is taken even further, with free content often not being allowed to be combined with non-free content.

As I see it, the easy dissemination of OGC content via a central database would bring about a few major changes in the industry:

1) Commercial publishers would benefit from increased access to reusable material.
2) These same publishers would also release less and less material as OGC.
3) The increased availability of OGC would make community and individual projects that reuse OGC rules more feasible.

So the OGC SRD would end up being fed largely buy community-generated content done for the love of the hobby rather than for profit as well as whatever content generous companies felt like donating. Publishers would benefit in that they would have vastly increased access to reusable material.

In the software industry at least, this has already happened. Most open source software is written by volunteers, while companies write proprietary software that relies on this free software. More interestingly, though, this has recently started reaching a critical mass. Companies have realized that it is worth their while to pay some employees to enhance the open source software as well, since better open source software makes for a better basis for their proprietary products. Also, many companies have adopted a tactic of releasing the core product as open source while keeping add-ons proprietary. Thus they earn community goodwill AND the benefits of any enhancements community members make to the core product.

To a large degree, this whole controversy is that RPG products are increasingly considered more and more just a piece of structured data like a computer program rather than a purely creative work like a novel. Whether or not this is true or fair, people more and more want modular, easily manipulated and modified rules that are can be combined effectively and simply. And, quite honestly, that is what the open-source model excels at. When all of the core material is free, there is no need to reinvent the wheel unless it really is a significantly better wheel. And because anyone can access all the rules, it is always possible to make sure that best-of-breed rules are compatible.

For this to happen in the RPG industry would certainly be a tremendous change, but not an impossible one. And it would certainly be a rough transition. But I think, if the OGL is to come to fruition as it was initially intended, it is what will have to happen.