Master Summoner - Prestige Class

[farscapesg1]

Thanks for the advice. I've been thinking the class over and honestly I think I need to focus it more to either improving the summoned creatures or being able to summon larger numbers, not both. I've decided that I will go with the improvement route since our combats are already pretty large in numbers (6-7 PCs against however many opponents).

I will work out the details and post it here again.

Out of curiosity, why is the spontaneous ability so "over-powered"? I was basing it on the fact that Clerics can spontaneously swap their spells for healing and Druids can spontaneously swap spells for Summon Nature's Ally. I figured that as a prestige ability that would be fairly balanced. Yes, sorcerers might not get anything out of it, but there are other prestige classes that sorcerers would get very little from taking.

I personally don't think that spellcaster prestige classes should get full caster level progression. If you want full progression, stay with the base classes. That is just me, and I think the DM in the group feels the same way from our conversations. Besides, some of these abilities are very powerful (and maybe too powerful) so something needs to be given up for them. Since a character can not enter this class until 6th level, the wizard has 3 bonus feats and spellcasting levels that can be given up.

I already plan on changing the Variable allies ability so that all summoned creatures must be within 1 alignment shift on the Good/Evil axis (Good and Neutral or Neutral and Evil but not Good and Evil).

I am going to keep the Of This World ability as long as the DM approves it. However, I will probably split the ability up into two options. One that allows the creatures to try to bypass the warding spells and another that makes them tougher to dismiss/banish/dispel. I like the flavor of this ability to have an enemy wizard think he is safe behind his first-level Protection from Good spell only to have the Celestial creature walk right through it.

I will open the class up more, but for flavor it will still require Skill Focus. So that would make the pre-requisites Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Skill Focus - Knowledge (Planes). I'll drop it to 2 planar languages. That is a compromise between the two. That is 4 skill points over the course of 6 levels (or more) before entering the class.

I was afraid to make the class give any sort of ability that gives the caster even more spells per day. Usually, I feel that it steps on the toes of the Sorcerer. I also based that drawback in the Prestige class on the similar abilities of the Red Wizard and the Incantrix.

As for Denial, what about an ability that grants the Master Summoner the ability to take control of other creatures summoned by other casters? Something similar to the Cleric's Turn/Rebuke ability? I'm not sure what kind of check that would need to be or how many times per day to limit it. I would prefer it to not be based off of Charisma since the Summon Monster spells don't rely on Charisma in any way, but that may be the only option. That would also make it more appealing to Clerics, something that I am trying to steer away from.

Also, another ability I was thinking of using is the ability to change the templates on the summoned creatures. If it is a Fiendish or Celestial creature, the template can be changed either to the opposite template or even the Axiomatic or Anarchic templates from the Planar Handbook. This would allow Celestial Wolves for example (or Anarchic Wolves). This would be a huge benefit for Clerics since they aren't allowed to summon either good or evil creatures depending on their alignment. It also works well with the Variable Allies ability.

 

[Bront]

Out of curiosity, why is the spontaneous ability so "over-powered"? I was basing it on the fact that Clerics can spontaneously swap their spells for healing and Druids can spontaneously swap spells for Summon Nature's Ally. I figured that as a prestige ability that would be fairly balanced. Yes, sorcerers might not get anything out of it, but there are other prestige classes that sorcerers would get very little from taking.

I was afraid to make the class give any sort of ability that gives the caster even more spells per day. Usually, I feel that it steps on the toes of the Sorcerer. I also based that drawback in the Prestige class on the similar abilities of the Red Wizard and the Incantrix.

I personally don't think that spellcaster prestige classes should get full caster level progression. If you want full progression, stay with the base classes. That is just me, and I think the DM in the group feels the same way from our conversations. Besides, some of these abilities are very powerful (and maybe too powerful) so something needs to be given up for them. Since a character can not enter this class until 6th level, the wizard has 3 bonus feats and spellcasting levels that can be given up.

I am going to keep the Of This World ability as long as the DM approves it. However, I will probably split the ability up into two options. One that allows the creatures to try to bypass the warding spells and another that makes them tougher to dismiss/banish/dispel. I like the flavor of this ability to have an enemy wizard think he is safe behind his first-level Protection from Good spell only to have the Celestial creature walk right through it.

As for Denial, what about an ability that grants the Master Summoner the ability to take control of other creatures summoned by other casters? Something similar to the Cleric's Turn/Rebuke ability? I'm not sure what kind of check that would need to be or how many times per day to limit it. I would prefer it to not be based off of Charisma since the Summon Monster spells don't rely on Charisma in any way, but that may be the only option. That would also make it more appealing to Clerics, something that I am trying to steer away from.

Also, another ability I was thinking of using is the ability to change the templates on the summoned creatures. If it is a Fiendish or Celestial creature, the template can be changed either to the opposite template or even the Axiomatic or Anarchic templates from the Planar Handbook. This would allow Celestial Wolves for example (or Anarchic Wolves). This would be a huge benefit for Clerics since they aren't allowed to summon either good or evil creatures depending on their alignment. It also works well with the Variable Allies ability.

Spontanious is overpowered because you are steping on the toes of other casters. Druids have their spontanious because they are servants of nature, so they can call nature to their aid if needed (that's what I feel it simulates). Clerics have healing more as a balance so they can actualy memories other spells and not be only the healer (Trying to intice more players to play a cleric, dispite it being a fairly powerful class). Sorcers get all their spells spontanious, but have a limited selection. Wizards have the biggest and most powerful spell selection, but can't cast them spontaniously which balances it out.

The extra spell benifits all classes that might take this class, allows the character to always have a summon spell, and doesn't let him spontaniously cast it if he runs out (unless he can already).

Reasonable. I would advise not loosing more than 2, and suggest loosing only one though. Something about a magic using character at 20th level not being able to cast 9th level spells when they took all magic classes (PRC and otherwise) doesn't seem right, and that's a HUGE disadvantage by even delaying them (lowers your caster level, and lowers per day spells, so every "power" of the class is effected). You are loosing out on familiar progression, and other class powers, but true, that's not that exciting.

Of This World sounds cool because it is, but negating level 3+ spells is nasty. Name an ability that any spellcasting PrC has that lets you have others blow off particular 3rd level spells (not simply grant an additional save). If you realy want it, make it the 10th level power, as it is by far the most powerful ability you have listed.

I like making Denial like turning, allowing you to either turn or control summoned creatures. Start it off at 1st level (as if a 1st level cleric), and go from there. Knowledge: Planes would give the +2 bonus, and the turn is still based on charisma. You can choose to control creatures that are within 2 steps of your alignment, or turn any. I like that mechanic.

Changing the Fiendish/Celestial templates is actualy a suggested rule in UA, where there are also themed summoning lists. I personaly let casters do it now, since there is no real difference between Celestial or Fiendish as far as power goes. I don't think you need to add it to the power list.

 

[farscapesg1]

I like making Denial like turning, allowing you to either turn or control summoned creatures. Start it off at 1st level (as if a 1st level cleric), and go from there. Knowledge: Planes would give the +2 bonus, and the turn is still based on charisma. You can choose to control creatures that are within 2 steps of your alignment, or turn any. I like that mechanic.

Don't you think that starting at an effective level of 1 is a little low? By the time that you enter the class, a character would have access to Monster Summoning III. Most creatures on that list are around 3 HD, if not higher (like the Celestial Bison which is 5 HD). Not to mention the higher levels. The best the Master Summoner could ever hope to affect would be a 14 HD creature at 10th level of the Prestige Class. I was thinking of basing it off the original Arcane or Divine spellcasting class and then add the Master Summoner class level. For instance, a Wizard 6/Master Summoner 3 would be treated as a 9th level character.

Also, remember that Charisma is not a strong point for most Wizards, so this gives a huge boost to the other Classes taking the class (especially Sorcerers). Not only will they usually be able to use the ability more times per day, they will naturally have a better chance of affecting higher HD and larger numbers of creatures. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be based of Charisma, since that is the logical choice, just that it doesn't benefit the Wizard class as much as the others. For a class designed to be focused more towards the Wizard (but open to almost any spellcaster), I find that a little odd.

 

[Bront]

Don't you think that starting at an effective level of 1 is a little low? By the time that you enter the class, a character would have access to Monster Summoning III. Most creatures on that list are around 3 HD, if not higher (like the Celestial Bison which is 5 HD). Not to mention the higher levels. The best the Master Summoner could ever hope to affect would be a 14 HD creature at 10th level of the Prestige Class. I was thinking of basing it off the original Arcane or Divine spellcasting class and then add the Master Summoner class level. For instance, a Wizard 6/Master Summoner 3 would be treated as a 9th level character.

Also, remember that Charisma is not a strong point for most Wizards, so this gives a huge boost to the other Classes taking the class (especially Sorcerers). Not only will they usually be able to use the ability more times per day, they will naturally have a better chance of affecting higher HD and larger numbers of creatures. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be based of Charisma, since that is the logical choice, just that it doesn't benefit the Wizard class as much as the others. For a class designed to be focused more towards the Wizard (but open to almost any spellcaster), I find that a little odd.

I would make it a flat bonus, not one based off of other classes if you want to change their effective level (Maybe twice their summoner level, or level +3 or something). Given they'll get 3 attempts a day (More if you let them take "extra turning feats"), and they have the potential to controll some creatures, I don't think limiting it too much is unreasonable, otherwise it gets too powerful.

As it works now, you should on average be able to effect a sommon of your master summoner level, which doesn't seem too out of line. +2-4 levels is about the most I would do (Very few summons end up with more than 15 HD, and those tend to be the longer ones that cost EXP).

Edit: Besides, a summoning caster usually needs a higher charisma anyway to bargain if I remember correctly, as well as he should have access to charisma augmenting spells/equipment.

 

[yennico]

I've been thinking the class over and honestly I think I need to focus it more to either improving the summoned creatures or being able to summon larger numbers, not both. I've decided that I will go with the improvement route since our combats are already pretty large in numbers (6-7 PCs against however many opponents).

Improving the summoned creatures is the easier way because if you have more than one spellcaster who summons monsters it could be that you need a mass combat systems.

Out of curiosity, why is the spontaneous ability so "over-powered"? I was basing it on the fact that Clerics can spontaneously swap their spells for healing and Druids can spontaneously swap spells for Summon Nature's Ally. I figured that as a prestige ability that would be fairly balanced. Yes, sorcerers might not get anything out of it, but there are other prestige classes that sorcerers would get very little from taking.

In addition to the points Bront pointed out:
Healing spells are not offensive spells, but summon monster spells are offensive spells.
A wizard can only emulate spontanous casting.
Here are ways how a wizard can emulate spontaneous casting
1. Get a level sorcerer. Now the wizardX/sorcerer1 can cast 4 level 0 spells and 2 level one spells spontaneous.
2. Become a specialist wizard, so you get one spell slot for your favorite school.
3. Become an archmage and take High Arcana spell-like ability
3. Take the spell mastery feat and the signature feat.

Giving a wizard spontaneous casting summon monster I-X is like giving a wizard 2x spell mastery (summon monster I-X) + 9 signature spell feat.

I personally don't think that spellcaster prestige classes should get full caster level progression. If you want full progression, stay with the base classes. That is just me, and I think the DM in the group feels the same way from our conversations. Besides, some of these abilities are very powerful (and maybe too powerful) so something needs to be given up for them. Since a character can not enter this class until 6th level, the wizard has 3 bonus feats and spellcasting levels that can be given up.

Giving a prc full caster level progression depends on the prc. Not all prcs for spellcaster should gain full caster level progression.
To enter a prc a character must make choices in feats and skills. Prc are prestige classes, so prestige can be defined as more powerful than a base class.
IMHO a prc with bab, hd and saves of wizard and no very powerful ability can have full caster level progression because this is the only way this prc can fight an enemy.
For a powerful ability you can drop one level of caster level progression. For more than one powerful abilities you can drop two levels of caster level progression.
Dropping more than two levels means that this spellcaster has no access to level 9 spells.
If you and your DM have the same opinion it is ok.

I am going to keep the Of This World ability as long as the DM approves it. However, I will probably split the ability up into two options.

Splitting the ability is a good idea.

One that allows the creatures to try to bypass the warding spells and another that makes them tougher to dismiss/banish/dispel. I like the flavor of this ability to have an enemy wizard think he is safe behind his first-level Protection from Good spell only to have the Celestial creature walk right through it.

Bypassing the warding is a powerful ability
Normally:

Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

If a creature can bypass the warding it also can use it´s abilities e.g. a devil/demon uses a charm or dominate spell on the warded creature

I will open the class up more, but for flavor it will still require Skill Focus. So that would make the pre-requisites Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Skill Focus - Knowledge (Planes). I'll drop it to 2 planar languages. That is a compromise between the two. That is 4 skill points over the course of 6 levels (or more) before entering the class.

that sounds ok.

I was afraid to make the class give any sort of ability that gives the caster even more spells per day. Usually, I feel that it steps on the toes of the Sorcerer. I also based that drawback in the Prestige class on the similar abilities of the Red Wizard and the Incantrix.

I also dislike giving the prc more spells per day. If you give your prc some powerful abilities at higher levels you can use the drawback as instrument for balancing the prc.

As for Denial, what about an ability that grants the Master Summoner the ability to take control of other creatures summoned by other casters? Something similar to the Cleric's Turn/Rebuke ability? I'm not sure what kind of check that would need to be or how many times per day to limit it. I would prefer it to not be based off of Charisma since the Summon Monster spells don't rely on Charisma in any way, but that may be the only option. That would also make it more appealing to Clerics, something that I am trying to steer away from.

Clerics have a restriction in summoning: the alignment.
You can not compare the turn/rebuke undead ability to dominate summon monsters.
An evil cleric has a limit of hds of undeads he can control.
Taking control of a summoned creature needs a contests of wills with the caster of the summoning spell. This contest of wills uses the actions of the master summoner for that round. The enemy spellcaster get a bonus of level of summoning spell on his will.
If the master summoner wins the contest he has control of all summoned creatures summoned by that summoning spells. The next action of the enemy spellcaster can be a dismissal, banishement or another summon monster spell.

Also, another ability I was thinking of using is the ability to change the templates on the summoned creatures. If it is a Fiendish or Celestial creature, the template can be changed either to the opposite template or even the Axiomatic or Anarchic templates from the Planar Handbook. This would allow Celestial Wolves for example (or Anarchic Wolves).
This would be a huge benefit for Clerics since they aren't allowed to summon either good or evil creatures depending on their alignment. It also works well with the Variable Allies ability.

The summoning spell of a cleric is granted by his deity. So the deity defines the rules for summoning. A good deity will never allow his clerics to summon animals which dwells in evil realms and have an evil alignment.
You can expand the list of creatures which can be summoned by creating animals with added templates to animals e.g. anarchic wolves can be summoned by wizards, sorcerers and clerics of a chaotic god or creating a fiendish griffon.
I dislike the idea of a transformation in combat e.g. the summoner summoned a fiendish animal but his enemies are protected by protection from evil spells so the summoner commands the animal to transform into a celestial animal so it can bypass the protections.
Templates are more than simple stats.

 

[Darmanicus]

That was a lot to get thru but some really nice ideas, some of which I've been toying with since I also really would like to create some sort of specialist summoner.

I don't think the 'Of Both Worlds' ability is too powerful at all. All it will do is allow the creatures to actually use all of their attacks against something with that protection up. It's not really that much different to a mage taking energy substitution so that his fireball turned acid ball can now overcome something with fire immunity/resistance.

I like the idea too of the enhanced augment. IMO summoned creatures are generally WAY outclassed in any given fight and a bit more survivability would do 'em some good.

Have you ever thought of creating a specific summons list where you could summon no more than, say, 3 different types of creatures at any given level? This then makes for a more flavored PrC. Another favorite is that when you summon you get the same creature every time you summon that type which can add to the RP element of the game and you can also outfit it with items!

How about creating your own template to apply to your summons?

 

[yennico]

I don't think the 'Of Both Worlds' ability is too powerful at all. All it will do is allow the creatures to actually use all of their attacks against something with that protection up. It's not really that much different to a mage taking energy substitution so that his fireball turned acid ball can now overcome something with fire immunity/resistance.

You can not compare energy substitution with of both world.
For casting a spell with energy substitution the wizard has to take the feat energy substitution and memorize the spell in a higher spell slot than normal. The feat energy substitution only works for one element.

Have you ever thought of creating a specific summons list where you could summon no more than, say, 3 different types of creatures at any given level? This then makes for a more flavored PrC.

Erekose tries to build a demonic summoner here.

Here are some thoughts on a conjurer in general.

Here you find the archsummoner prc.

Another favorite is that when you summon you get the same creature every time you summon that type which can add to the RP element of the game and you can also outfit it with items!

I dislike the idea of outfitting summoned creatures.
A summoned creature is not a cohort. If you outfit a summoned creature the summoner drains resources from the party. Only if the summoner summons that special creature the magical equipment e.g. ring of improved invisibility will take effect.
If you can outfit summoned creatures you can use them to store items (like a bag of holding). So no enumbrance any longer.
A thief can raid the items only from the creature if the summoner conjure the creature.

How about creating your own template to apply to your summons?

IMHO there are enough official and inoffical templates.

 

[farscapesg1]

Clerics have a restriction in summoning: the alignment.
You can not compare the turn/rebuke undead ability to dominate summon monsters.
An evil cleric has a limit of hds of undeads he can control.
Taking control of a summoned creature needs a contests of wills with the caster of the summoning spell. This contest of wills uses the actions of the master summoner for that round. The enemy spellcaster get a bonus of level of summoning spell on his will.
If the master summoner wins the contest he has control of all summoned creatures summoned by that summoning spells. The next action of the enemy spellcaster can be a dismissal, banishement or another summon monster spell.

So, in other words it would function as a Standard Action ability that would require a Charisma check between the two casters, with the opposing caster gaining a bonus equal to the spell level of the Summon Monster spell? That actually makes it a lot easier mechanically, though more difficult for my character since he has an average Charisma

That's actually a great idea. Would it be too much to grant the Master Summoner a bonus at higher levels? Something like a +4 to the check as a higher level ability? Or possibly a bonus equal to half the Master Summoner levels (0 at 1st, 1 at 2nd, 2 at 4th, etc.). Using the progressive bonus, that would mean at 10th level of the class the Master Summoner would have a +5 bonus on his check, while an opposing wizard casting Summon Monster 9 would have a +9, still granting him a +4 bonus to resist loosing control. If the opposing wizard is also a Master Summoner, then his bonuses for the prestige class would stack with the bonus for the spell level.

I also dislike the idea of outfitting summoned creatures. Personally, I am playing the character with summoning specific creatures, but I can't outfit them. They have names, but not much in the way of personality since they don't stick around long and our group rules that summoned creatures follow the commands of the caster to the letter. Not to mention we are still low level (just reached 4th level), so they are all basic animals.

My problem is coming up with enough ideas for the class. It seems that every summoner prestige class has the usual abilities of incrementing the augment summoning ability (change the bonuses to +6, then +8, etc.). I find that very bland and would actually rather implement something similar to the Astral Construct idea of choosing different abilities to be granted to the summoned creatures. Of course that adds a lot more rules and decision-making for the spells.

 

[Darmanicus]

You can not compare energy substitution with of both world.

I just did.

For casting a spell with energy substitution the wizard has to take the feat energy substitution and memorize the spell in a higher spell slot than normal.

So he has to take a feat, so what? I thought we were talking about an ability granted by a PrC and plenty of PrC's grant feats. And no it does NOT make the spell a level higher.

The feat energy substitution only works for one element.

'Of both worlds' only works on Protect from X/Magic circle X, hardly the entire list of 3rd level spells available to any caster!

Erekose tries to build a demonic summoner here.

Here are some thoughts on a conjurer in general.

Here you find the archsummoner prc.

Thanks for the links.

I dislike the idea of outfitting summoned creatures.

I on the other hand don't

A summoned creature is not a cohort.

You got that right and a cohort can't be dispelled or totally affected by anti-magic. A cohort gains levels and last, generally, more than caster level x X rounds.

If you outfit a summoned creature the summoner drains resources from the party.

That's not entirely true, I would imagine that it would drain the character in questions resources.

Only if the summoner summons that special creature the magical equipment e.g. ring of improved invisibility will take effect.

And? You can only usually wear two rings anyway so if you have a spare what does it matter?

If you can outfit summoned creatures you can use them to store items (like a bag of holding). So no enumbrance any longer.

A bag of holding usually negates the old encumberance thing anyway. I'd also go on to say that you could only outfit a creature with what it could comfortably carry.

A thief can raid the items only from the creature if the summoner conjure the creature.

Or if he finds the creature in question. It's a bit like if I leave me money in the bank and then go travelling then when I encounter said thief he STILL can't steal that money.

IMHO there are enough official and inoffical templates

Well your certainly entitled to that HO but since this is a house rules forum where people create stuff I'll leave it at that.

 

[ZuulMoG]

Question: Which high level wizard needs summon monster II at high levels.

A captured one with no spell book will be glad to be able to memorize a Silent, Still, Summon Monster to have the little bugger chew through his bonds.

As far as the prc goes, the last four abilities are ridiculously overpowered.