"Math glitch" -- explanation or pointer?

[Garthanos]

DMs want to throw Orcus at the group. The DM still can, he just has to have the group not be resource depleted when he does that and the PCs probably should be level 30 and not 28. He might also want to give them other advantages (such as NPC allies, special artifacts, whatever seems appropriate to the campaign).

Plus, how often do most players get to level 28+ anyway.

All in all, this is the cleanest and easiest and most elegant solution.


And note: this solution is not really that much different than what DMs have been doing for decades, adjusting the encounters for the PCs in the game. It's just a real simple way of doing that.

Bingo bingo bingo... you probably dont care but I am giving you and experience point for that one!

 

[KarinsDad]

Now, if there were a rash of threads that say 'CANNOT HIT AT EPIC BAAAWWWWWW' complete with real player experience then I could see a stronger argument for doing so.

Do those threads exist? I have not seen them.

Do you assume that the players who play Epic campaigns don't use WotC's heavy masterwork armor, expertise, and/or Epic NAD feat solutions to the problem?

Do you assume that the vast majority of campaigns that started when the rules first came out and pre-math fixes were Epic?

Do you assume that WotC did not know what they were doing when they put the math fixes into the splat books?


If not, then why would you expect there to be a lot of "my game is broken" threads if the math fix wasn't needed?

 

[The Little Raven]

Are people seeing this problem in play?

I'm not.

We've been playing since level 1 and are approaching epic tier in a couple levels (level 19), and we have not seen a single person in our group with <Weapon/Implement> Expertise, or any of the NAD feats.

The expectation in threads like this seems to be that a character should meet all the necessary attack bonuses and defenses bonuses simply through character creation rather than through tactical gameplay, which is something I strongly disagree with in 4e, with its greater focus on victory through gameplay (whereas 3e had more much of a victory through awesome character building focus).

My players use powers that grant themselves and eachother bonuses to attacks and Defenses, which fill in the math.

Things are not as difficult as this theorycrafting suggests they would be.

While, obviously, my experience is anecdotal and not hard data, I'm curious as to how many of the people claiming this math issue is a huge problem are dealing with it in actual play and how many are just doing theorycrafting. In play, I haven't seen it be the big issue it seems to be on these forums, and that's going on 90 game sessions of 4e now.

 

[DracoSuave]

Do you assume that the players who play Epic campaigns don't use WotC's heavy masterwork armor, expertise, and/or Epic NAD feat solutions to the problem?

Masterwork armor has always been a part of the game. So I don't assume they don't.

But, one can look for threads older than the PHB2 for the criterion. I don't remember them back then.

Do you assume that the vast majority of campaigns that started when the rules first came out and pre-math fixes were Epic?

No, but if it's Epic when the numbers fall behind than checking at Heroic wouldn't exactly yield useful information, now, would it?

Do you assume that WotC did not know what they were doing when they put the math fixes into the splat books?

Do you assume that they didn't know what they were doing before PHB2 regarding this? That Epic level wasn't playtested at all?

If not, then why would you expect there to be a lot of "my game is broken" threads if the math fix wasn't needed?

You're misrepresenting my position.

Ahem.

Before PHB2 there -was not- a lot of threads saying 'My Game Is Broken I Can't Hit A Thing.' Far from it, the prevailing threads were about how -easy- Epic was.

So, if your evidence points to there not being a problem, then chances are there is probably no problem.

Then the PHB2 comes out and people go 'OH IT MUST BE THERE TO FIX THE BUG' which it -might- be, but the possibility also exists that those feats exist because people like to add numbers on their character sheet.

'But expertise goes up at levels 15 and 25' stop.

It might be that way not because of a 'math fix' but because the other way leads to a math-glut, where the feat goes -too far- along the curve in the positive direction.

But regardless.

Math bug. It only actually 'existed' once PHB2 came out. But it's a -math- bug, which meant if there was a -real- problem, the -problem- would have exposed itself well before then.

 

[keterys]

Before PHB2 there -was not- a lot of threads saying 'My Game Is Broken I Can't Hit A Thing.' Far from it, the prevailing threads were about how -easy- Epic was.

Fwiw, I recall two types of threads.

One was that epic fights took far too long. There were certainly complaints about difficulty hitting, as well as damage compared to hit point pools.

The other involved using a few specific tricks, such as Blade Cascade, Seal of Binding, and perma-stunning via multiple powers, to defeat specific solos, such as Orcus and the Tarrasque, often without the solo being able to act even once.

Also alot of theorycraft bitching about specific interactions, like level 30 Demigod or level 26 Demigod.

I recall extremely few threads based on actual play, rather than either theorycraft or staged single fights, that actually talked about the difficulty of the game in any true detail.

Then the PHB2 comes out and people go 'OH IT MUST BE THERE TO FIX THE BUG' which it -might- be, but the possibility also exists that those feats exist because people like to add numbers on their character sheet.

Entirely possible, of course. Given that there are many feats that give +1 to hit under specific circumstances (such as after using an encounter or daily power), in both PHB and PHB2.

Math bug. It only actually 'existed' once PHB2 came out. But it's a -math- bug, which meant if there was a -real- problem, the -problem- would have exposed itself well before then.

People were talking about it prior to the PHB2's release. For example, this thread talks all about it, including reference to 'I suspect a lot of the "character miss too much" sentiment' which implies that it was a more common thread at the time. It doesn't mention Expertise at all and was posted more than a month prior to the PHB2's release.

 

[DracoSuave]

Fwiw, I recall two types of threads.

One was that epic fights took far too long. There were certainly complaints about difficulty hitting, as well as damage compared to hit point pools.

The other involved using a few specific tricks, such as Blade Cascade, Seal of Binding, and perma-stunning via multiple powers, to defeat specific solos, such as Orcus and the Tarrasque, often without the solo being able to act even once.

Also alot of theorycraft bitching about specific interactions, like level 30 Demigod or level 26 Demigod.

I recall extremely few threads based on actual play, rather than either theorycraft or staged single fights, that actually talked about the difficulty of the game in any true detail.

I do recall a number of threads that were 'Actually, it's not that bad.' But the 'grindy' threads were always about the padded sumo effect (lots of hp) rather than the difficulties in depleting them.

Entirely possible, of course. Given that there are many feats that give +1 to hit under specific circumstances (such as after using an encounter or daily power), in both PHB and PHB2.


People were talking about it prior to the PHB2's release. For example, this thread talks all about it, including reference to 'I suspect a lot of the "character miss too much" sentiment' which implies that it was a more common thread at the time. It doesn't mention Expertise at all and was posted more than a month prior to the PHB2's release.

It's a theorycrafting thread discussing a lot of the hitrate changing, with a lot of practical experience people saying that at higher levels you have more ability to get people to hit more and harder which more than makes up for it.

So follow me.

Theory: There's a problem.
Practice: You didn't take the entirety of the system into account. In practice, strategy, tactics, power choice, and character synergies make up for a lot more than that +3 to hit would indicate.

The problem with the latter is that it's intangible, and therefore theorycraft can't actually look at it with any critical eye.

But it's there, has always been there. Regardless, at some point the 'there's a math glitch' troop got into it, the devs noticed there's room for some to hit bonus they could stick on a feat, batta bing batta boom, and it's done.

 

[keterys]

Eh, I only quoted the thread to prove you were incorrect. Apparently there were significant complaints prior to the PH2 about hit rate and missing.

The PH2 contains a feat that, clumsily, enacts a massive change in the hit rate.

Therefore, whether it was desirable for people to have a higher hit chance at epic play or not, there was concern, and WotC badly addressed that concern.

 

[Victim]

The problem with the latter is that it's intangible, and therefore theorycraft can't actually look at it with any critical eye.

The other problem with the latter is that if characters miss with a set up power that provides an attack bonus or drops enemy defenses in the first place, then the PC lose a huge chunk of potential damage. Most powers require that you get lucky and hit in the first place to get the bonus machine rolling. If that doesn't happen, then the party founders. Attack bonuses that didn't require something else to hit first were rather rare. Not every group should need a Tac Lord Battle Captain to get attack bonuses without hitting.

 

[DracoSuave]

The other problem with the latter is that if characters miss with a set up power that provides an attack bonus or drops enemy defenses in the first place, then the PC lose a huge chunk of potential damage. Most powers require that you get lucky and hit in the first place to get the bonus machine rolling. If that doesn't happen, then the party founders. Attack bonuses that didn't require something else to hit first were rather rare. Not every group should need a Tac Lord Battle Captain to get attack bonuses without hitting.

Well, Combat advantage takes care of +2 which is most of the issue taken care of already.

That's something that can be milked in many delicious ways, and isn't just a 'leader' thing to do.

 

[eamon]

Well, Combat advantage takes care of +2 which is most of the issue taken care of already.

That's something that can be milked in many delicious ways, and isn't just a 'leader' thing to do.

Combat advantage is available and quite achievable in heroic tier already. It doesn't stack. It may be somewhat more common in epic tier, but it's not a full +2 difference, rather a fraction of a +1.

It's not just PC's that get nastier; monsters' aura's and special abilities do to. And the action economy means that those nasty dailies and whatnot PC's have at epic still have a high opportunity cost in their displacing other not-much-weaker lower-level powers. Losing +4 to hit over the course of the game isn't balanced. Claiming that "teamwork" benefits compensate for it isn't particularly convincing; which teamwork benefits would this be?