"Math glitch" -- explanation or pointer?

[Garthanos]

You keep coming back to this idea, so I'll say it again: these kind of logistics have no place in D&D, nor have they ever had. PCs manage to find appropriately leveled foes, regardless of ecologies and logistics. Why, because they're heroes blessed by fate and luck. And because they're the lucky pawns of these things called 'players' who expect to be challenged at a roughly unchanging level. Take your pick.

Oh I do get the wierd luck resulting in heros encountering strange frequency of various occurances... but those really top end big bads do feel more rare if they are a little more rare even for the heros. How many times can buffy stop the appocolypse before she has to fight the drudgery of the fast food business - as many times as the authors can think of an interesting way for it to happen I know

I think you convinced me but I do think there are multiple ways of showing that heros themselves are now big and awesome ... and hewing larger numbers of enemies as long as those fights are interesting could be a solution instead of advancing the level of the monsters that you encounter.

I have always had to design adventures with my players in mind.. if they are more tactically inclined increasing the dangers various ways. If they are less tactically inclined the opposite. I might not have noticed this as I have fewer than the "standard number" of players in my group

I want other ways to even it out...

Lets say the big bads are getting much harder to fight on purpose .. drop the big bads best toy in a lava pit to bring him down three levels (after a quest to find it with multiple lower level encounters) so that he can become more manageable... hunt up the relic with his name in its sights... These methods are much cooler than picking a must have feat. But I guess I dont want this to happen less frequently at heroic level than at epic.
So that doesn't support epic being more difficult.

 

[Victim]

Combat advantage stacks with -everything.- It just doesn't stack with Combat advantage. You're silly.

It may be somewhat more common in epic tier, but it's not a full +2 difference, rather a fraction of a +1.

It's been +2 to hit every game I've ever played in. It's like saying a power that gives your allies +2 to hit isn't actually +2 because it isn't an at-will or something; That's somewhat silly.



It's +3, not +4, and yes, Combat Advantage is a -lot- easier to attain at higher levels, when you've got 6 utility powers, and a plethora of daily and encounter powers, of which -most- have some way of getting combat advantage. It's a -lot- easier at the higher levels. And monster's abilities might seem to get nastier, but monsters don't seem to be getting tougher, in fact, their ability to damage and threaten a party goes -down- not -up-.



Given that the system -was- working fine before PHB2, and people's -experience- pointed towards there being little problem in this regard, perhaps you should ask them how they did it.

But they -did do it.- And -that- is all that is necessary to prove it is possible.

Well, characters should be going for CA starting from level 1. It's not really that hard to get then, so making it easier at epic is not worth a whole lot.

And while characters do get more utility effects to help them get CA more easily, monsters get more auras that debuff attacks or defenses. They have more condition bearing attacks that daze or stun, so flanking partners may be unavailable. More monsters have teleport, so they bamf out of bad positions instead of being stuck between the fighter and rogue.

The real power in the utilities is that PCs have a load more healing at epic levels. Monsters will hit a lot, and take away actions, but PCs have more resistances and healing so it doesn't hurt that much. So they win slowly.

 

[KarinsDad]

The real power in the utilities is that PCs have a load more healing at epic levels. Monsters will hit a lot, and take away actions, but PCs have more resistances and healing so it doesn't hurt that much. So they win slowly.

QFT.

In earlier editions, I used to say "The advantage of the PCs is that they have magic". Sure, monsters had abilities. But they tended to be one trick ponies.

In 4E, "The advantage of the PCs is that they have healing". Sure, monsters have fewer abilities. But they have many of the same abilities of PCs: moving foes, quick movement, buff, debuff, continuous damage, etc. They just don't have healing.

That's why PCs win the hard fights. Because they can stick around long enough to win out.

 

[keterys]

Winning slowly definitely seems less... exciting, as a concept.

Also, I imagine some groups don't have a ton more healing at epic, especially not comparatively.

I mean, compare an epic group with no leader to one with a 1st level group with a cleric with astral seal, sacred flame, and beacon of hope - or two healers.

Or even the same exact group, but at 1st the cleric has those powers and at epic doesn't have beacon and hasn't picked up other healing powers.

 

[Garthanos]

QFT.

In earlier editions, I used to say "The advantage of the PCs is that they have magic".

Except the fighters who were also "one trick ponies" or they were in AD&D and prior anyway.

 

[KarinsDad]

Except the fighters who were also "one trick ponies" or they were in AD&D and prior anyway.

Right. But I wasn't speaking of the abilities of any individual PCs. I was speaking of the abilities of the group. Pre-4E, the group had spells, even though Fighters didn't.

Now, the 4E group has healing, even though (shy of Second Wind) most PCs do not. Second Wind merely ups the number of hit points of each PC by 25% for all intents and purposes. It's not so much healing as it is a secondary gas tank.

Healing, on the other hand, allows the PCs to maintain action economy because it can be focused where it is needed the most. An NPC that goes down rarely comes back up. An NPC that has 5 hit points left, rarely jumps out of bloodied status. That happens all of the time with PCs and it allows the PCs to maintain the action economy balance and eventually, the action economy edge.