Mature Gaming- Are we too rules oriented?

[Belen]

Has anyone ever come up with a definition of a mature game? For me, a mature game would be a serious game. The players and GM would roleplay their characters as characters rather than a set of game stats. A mature game would lead to real interaction between characters and PCs. Combat would happen for a reason, PCs would start families and would feel as they belonged in the world. Questions like 'why' would be asked as often as how, who, what or where.

Unfortunately, no set of "rules" can provide this environment. At least, none of the books on the shelf or announced come close to helping people develop a "mature" game. At one point, I worked for a D20 company that was developing books of this type. The books were rules light (less crunch, lots of fluff). However, the material did not generate enough interest for investors and we never got off the ground.

I hear a lot of people on the boards talk about a desire for mature material. However, I have not seen much that would classify as "mature." Evil and sex or both areas that could be done in a mature manner. However, the rules for said things focus on game mechanics rather than providing GMs with the tools to run deeper games.

I begin to wonder if "crunch=good" has come to rule the d20 market. Why are we seeking rules to run a deeper game? Laziness perhaps?

No amount of rules will make a game "mature." That has to come from the GMs and players. A necrophiliac spell or a vestal virgin really does not add to the game. Yes, a GM could use the spell or class to add some more flavor to villains, but is that the way to go.

Why do NPCs need classes to define who they are? If you want an evil person, would not motives, desires, goals and attitude be more effective?

The books we need to have produced that would lead to more mature games would and should be more fluff than rules. For instance, a true book of vile darkness would discuss motives, madness, reasons that people choose evil such as bad childhoods etc. A book that would add to mature games would discuss love, marriage, family and child-rearing etc. A "rule" book that would lead to mature games would include fantasy economics, size of cities, how spells affected the way a world runs etc.

Crunch will never satisfy those people looking to have mature DnD games. Only a combination of fluff and group dynamics will lead to a deeper game.

I know this to be true, yet I still want someone to produce a book that will make this all easier for me.

Go figure.

Dave

 

[hong]

A "mature" game is one played by people who are mature enough not to care about labels like "mature".

 

[Belen]

Maybe we should have a Hong's one-liners page on EnWorld, guaranteed to reveal how he gets that high post count.

I would agree with you, Hong, except that you cannot have a messageboard discussion on a topic without labeling it, you anarchist, you!

 

[diaglo]

a mature game doesn't have to lack humor. or stats. or fluff.

all it requires is a grasp of the topics and the ability to roll with the punches when they get "real".

 

[Belen]

Not saying that a mature game is absent of rules. I am saying that creating rules that are a substitute for roleplaying does not lead to mature games.

A person who relies on a certain spell to explain the reason that an NPC is evil, or a PrC that provides a rule for having sex will never lead to a deeper game experience.

Instead, die rolling for maturity will only cause disassociation within the game. It pulls someone away from immerision into the game world, their character, and the story.

Just labeling a book 'mature' does not make the content mature, nor does it help add a mature element to the game.

I just think that rather than give us what we really want (books that will help us run better, deeper games), then current publishers are focused on crunch rather than material that will help RP. Maybe it is because a PrC is quantifiable, when a discussion of madness or evil is not.

However, one of those will help GMs run a deeper game, the other just provides cool abilities to players/ NPCs. I'd rather see a book with adult discussions that help lead to more adult games. A book that helps answer why this work, why some people react in a certain way etc. A book that is written from a fantasy view with situations that arise from a fantasy setting.

 

[Kesh]

As was stated, you can run a mature game without any rules additions at all. However, rules additions can help inspire your mature game.

One thing I like from the Book of Vile Darkness is the Dark Speech feat. Sure, you don't really need the rule to do something like that in game... but I honestly hadn't thought about it in that kind of detail before. It gave me some inspiration.

I think that's the real focus of 'mature' gaming supplements. Providing inspiration for your game, and helping streamline things that otherwise would be DM fiat (sacrifice rules, etc.).

 

[Henry]

For instance, a true book of vile darkness would discuss motives, madness, reasons that people choose evil such as bad childhoods etc.

And it does do this. The first chapter of the BoVD does do an excellent discussion IMO of the "types" of evil, and not only why they are that way, but why their surrounding societies suffer them.

Another product from Kenzer & Company, the Villain Design Handbook, which according to one review contains "...information on giving villains real motivations and obsessions, the criminal psychology of the villain, the villain's place in society, building levels of intrigue, [and] how to avoid common stereotypes..." I've never seen it, but it sounds pretty close to what you require.

A book that would add to mature games would discuss love, marriage, family and child-rearing etc.

Book of Erotic Fantasy promises to treat this topic, but I didn't see anything past the love and marriage in the preview. Time, and the book, will tell.

A "rule" book that would lead to mature games would include fantasy economics, size of cities, how spells affected the way a world runs etc.

The "Magical Medieval Society" series, by Epeditious Retreat Press, has done a very good job with this, and promises to do even more.

 

[Default Name Player]

So, is this a roundabout way of saying you don't like the BoVD & BoEF?

If you're really up for a discussion, I want to point out that you seem to have two topics rolled into one in your argument:

- "crunch"
- "mature"

I was following your argument about your definition of a mature game being a "serious" one, but it segued into a complaint about crunch (in general), and then crunch in mature games.

Personally, I don't see "mature" (whatever that might mean, depending on the individual) and "crunch" being indicative of each other. The subject you posted of "Are we too rules oriented?" can be asked of ANY kind campaign ("mature" or not) of ANY game system, and is pretty much an entire discussion in itself: "mature" or not.

Following your definition of "mature", we already have these sources of "fluff" all around us: books, movies, music, etc. Want to go in-depth about motives, madness, etc? Well, read some psychology books. Who said that "fluff" has to come just books published by a gaming company? Otherwise, it's expecting a bit much for game writers/designers to go beyond being general about these things unless game companies start hiring PHds to write various chapters.

"yet I still want someone to produce a book that will make this all easier for me"

...and isn't "me" the most telling? The only person who can satisfy "me" is by doing it "myself". Otherwise, where's the cause for complain when a book comes out that isn't exactly perfect for "me"?

 

[Henry]

One thing I like from the Book of Vile Darkness is the Dark Speech feat. Sure, you don't really need the rule to do something like that in game... but I honestly hadn't thought about it in that kind of detail before. It gave me some inspiration.

Another thing that doesn't get much consideration is just how much a game mechanic can add to the plot of a game. "Liquid Agony" from the BoVD is behind a VERY important secret in my Forgotten Realms campaign world, and the players haven't figured it out yet... But they'll get blindsided with it at the appropriate time.

Similarly, other things that people haven't touched on - the spell components from BoVD - they answer the questions of "why would someone obsessed with power go to the lengths they do?" The spell component for boneblast is a gruesome thing, and should the party come across that spell component source, still living and breathing in the spell-caster's possession, they will come to grips with evil in an entirely different way. As an idea source for mature campaign themes, it's a great read.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

The only things I would consider immature would be if gamers were making other gamers uncomfortable in any way. This could be by adding graphic content some players found objectionable. This could be by the language/ behavior of a gamer (male or female) towards another. This could be by a gamer always trying to grab the spotlight, while the others sat back for a few hours waiting for this one gamer to be done (unless of course, everyone was fine with it). Some games are role-play heavy, others are roll-play heavy. If everyone in the group is ok with it , then it's fine.

You can't really define mature /immature. It certainly doesn't have to do with age, as I've met 17 year olds such as Dave_o on ENworld who are more well spoken , and fun to chat with then many 37 year olds.

Violence and Sexuality can be discussed in games, as long as everyone is comfortable with it, and with the way it is prsented. Some people, such as myself, are perfectly comfortable with nearly all levels of discussion of "sensitive issues" and won't be offended unless they feel like something someone says could lead to the endangerment of themselves or other players within the group (ie. the thread a while back where someone was concerned about a guy making off comments to their young daughter during games). Other people are more sensitive to these issues, and should be respected; particularly if the majority of a group is not comfortable with it. Of course, the flip side to that is someone who is very sensitive in a group full of other people hwo are not, may have to realize that they can not expect a groups behavior to change for them and respect the others as well (unless they are doing something illegal...in which case...they shoudl probably report it).

Games can have varying levels of out of game goofing off, in game goofing off , and joking. Again, like everything else, as long as the whole group is happy, it's fine.

When one person feels offended, or uncomfortable, they need to say something and try to work through it; and if that's not possible, then I'd recommend they find another group, one that is more suited to what they want in a game.

I think there is a group out there for everyone, and as long as you're having fun, "mature" or "immature" should not matter.

I played a few games recently witha group of younger guys and I had a blast , despite the fact that they were not on focus of teh game 1/2 the time, barely followed the rules and were far more into being goofy. It was fun, but not really the sort of game I wanted to rush out to after work on a weeknight, and so I left. That doesn't mean they were immature. It means that we had different gaming needs.

My two cents...

Sheri