Mature Gaming- Are we too rules oriented?
- Thread starter Belen
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Desdichado
Hero
Henry, you're a true gentleman. That's why you're august! 
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Cedric
First Post
Want a game that defines and/or encompasses everything you mentioned?
Amber Diceless RPG
You can try to power game it...but every "power gaming" thing you can do has it's own checks and balances. How powerful your character is has a lot more to do with how devious and skilled you are as a player.
I'm not saying it's the perfect game or anything. But it involves much, much more roleplaying than your typical game does. There are few mechanics to fall back on and most situation resolution is up to the GM, making it harder to manipulate the game system.
Cedric
Amber Diceless RPG
You can try to power game it...but every "power gaming" thing you can do has it's own checks and balances. How powerful your character is has a lot more to do with how devious and skilled you are as a player.
I'm not saying it's the perfect game or anything. But it involves much, much more roleplaying than your typical game does. There are few mechanics to fall back on and most situation resolution is up to the GM, making it harder to manipulate the game system.
Cedric
Olive
Explorer
Ok... I'm a big believer in tne BoVD. Love the book.
I also hate the 'mature' label. It's near meaningless. I want to play a dark, demon-infested game. I want rules to govern fiendish posession, and how the players interact with it etc.
That's what I want from a rules supplement. You don't? Don't buy it.
I basically agree with BU, that mture doesn't mean the BoVD, but I also think that mature deosn't not mean the BoVD. It's all in how you use it...
Note: the BoVD is just an example...
I also hate the 'mature' label. It's near meaningless. I want to play a dark, demon-infested game. I want rules to govern fiendish posession, and how the players interact with it etc.
That's what I want from a rules supplement. You don't? Don't buy it.
I basically agree with BU, that mture doesn't mean the BoVD, but I also think that mature deosn't not mean the BoVD. It's all in how you use it...
Note: the BoVD is just an example...
jasper
Rotten DM
jasper confused
yea is my normal state to.
Are you looking for a book with suggestions, and campaigns where the players role paly the part of their characters without letting a rules call by the judge interfer with the enjoyment of the game?
Good luck. The core books prove the hard and fast rules which govern what the die roll represent. But not much on how the gamers should play the scene.
So do you want a book on
How to create a consistent world?
How to keep gamers on topic and into to the scene?
How to tell gamers what happen may violate the normal rules but it doesn't due to suprise inside?
How to make players feel they there instead it's a sheet of paper and handfull of d6s?
Hopefully some one will link or give some good article names.
yea is my normal state to.
Are you looking for a book with suggestions, and campaigns where the players role paly the part of their characters without letting a rules call by the judge interfer with the enjoyment of the game?
Good luck. The core books prove the hard and fast rules which govern what the die roll represent. But not much on how the gamers should play the scene.
So do you want a book on
How to create a consistent world?
How to keep gamers on topic and into to the scene?
How to tell gamers what happen may violate the normal rules but it doesn't due to suprise inside?
How to make players feel they there instead it's a sheet of paper and handfull of d6s?
Hopefully some one will link or give some good article names.
Desdichado
Hero
Robin Laws has such a book, although I can't remember the exact name of it. There's a lot of articles in Dragon over the years that provide the same type of advice.
What determines the level of maturity of a game is the personnel: pure and simple. Rules oriented to more mature groups only work when the group in question actually is mature.
I don't especially recommend D&D rules for mature RP dynamics; they're fine but other, lighter rules are often better for more mature and complex plots. The more rules you have, the more games are forced into hack and slash D&D tropes; if you want to move away from that, use rules that encourage different outcomes, reward different behaviours and, most importantly, do not circumscribe the GM's capacity to tell interesting stories. It's a constant struggle for me, in one of my games, to maintain a coherent symbol system, religion and natural philosophy when I am faced with hundreds of little rules eating into that. The D&D corpus, as it stands, works actively against the creation of a thematically consistent world.
My general view is: if you want a more mature game, change the people you are gaming with and everything will flow from there.
I don't especially recommend D&D rules for mature RP dynamics; they're fine but other, lighter rules are often better for more mature and complex plots. The more rules you have, the more games are forced into hack and slash D&D tropes; if you want to move away from that, use rules that encourage different outcomes, reward different behaviours and, most importantly, do not circumscribe the GM's capacity to tell interesting stories. It's a constant struggle for me, in one of my games, to maintain a coherent symbol system, religion and natural philosophy when I am faced with hundreds of little rules eating into that. The D&D corpus, as it stands, works actively against the creation of a thematically consistent world.
My general view is: if you want a more mature game, change the people you are gaming with and everything will flow from there.
The original poster isn't using the word "Mature" in the "For Mature Audiences Only" context.
Having said that, I think it's a good question. Having read The Forge more than is probably healthy, I'd say you're actually talking of "Moving from Gamism to Narrativist or Simulationist play", which is a mouthful but much more precise than "Mature", especially because everyone figured you meant something about boobies.
Rules-light systems tend to discourage Gamism, or more precisely,they don't reward it. On the other hand, crunchy D&D books sell well precisely because they pander to Gamists. It's almost like the CCG fad -- buy an expansion to power up your character!
Again, to the original poster, having a read of some of the articles or forum posts at www.indie-rpgs.com might be illuminating, although they're dense and can be hard to follow (they have their own jargon, which I seem to be using more and more often.)
Having said that, I think it's a good question. Having read The Forge more than is probably healthy, I'd say you're actually talking of "Moving from Gamism to Narrativist or Simulationist play", which is a mouthful but much more precise than "Mature", especially because everyone figured you meant something about boobies.
Rules-light systems tend to discourage Gamism, or more precisely,they don't reward it. On the other hand, crunchy D&D books sell well precisely because they pander to Gamists. It's almost like the CCG fad -- buy an expansion to power up your character!
Again, to the original poster, having a read of some of the articles or forum posts at www.indie-rpgs.com might be illuminating, although they're dense and can be hard to follow (they have their own jargon, which I seem to be using more and more often.)
Belen
Legend
Thanks for the link, ST. You hit my argument on the head as I did not intend "boobies" in my comments at all.
I am actually trying to merge my love of DnD and my desire for a deeper game into one by building a new campaign world that solves the inconsistancies inherent in a rule system.
Hopefully, I can still use third edition DnD and have a world that allows a deep RP experience.
I am actually trying to merge my love of DnD and my desire for a deeper game into one by building a new campaign world that solves the inconsistancies inherent in a rule system.
Hopefully, I can still use third edition DnD and have a world that allows a deep RP experience.
Desdichado
Hero
In my experience, the problem isn't inherent in the system of d20, it's inherent in the fact that it's D&D and that evokes a certain mindset in players. I have folks that play much more gamist and "less mature" using your definition of the term in D&D than they do in d20 Modern for instance. I think it's subtle, but the fact that they've been playing all these older editions of D&D for so long means they don't associate the game with deep, heavy immersion storytelling style games. It doesn't mean the system isn't a good one to provide that, just that the mindset associated with the very fact that's it's D&D makes it harder to get to that point.
But that's just my experience...
But that's just my experience...
