D&D 5E Max HP?

[MarkB]

1-2 rounds is about typical for 5e fights, and bosses can go down fast if the party can focus and has lots of nova potential.

One concept I've been considering is allowing Legendary Resistance to apply to initiative checks. If the boss monster rolls terribly for initiative and is likely to only get to act once and then die, let it spend a Legendary Resistance to bump its spot in the initiative order up to second or third.

 

[Delazar]

ONLY 7 rounds? 7 rounds is a lot… it’s at least one hour of play at the table, if not more, if you have legendary actions and minions.

I actually wish fights were shorter

 

[Jaeger]

I think monsters are undertuned in 5E. By quite a lot. Max PC hit points would only make the problems of the edition worse.

IMHO It is the PC's that are overtuned.

Re:

Monsters and PCs, if anything need LESS HPs, not more.

Agree. It's not so much about the length of the combat. But the consequences for the PC's getting hit.

Ok, so the big bad was dusted in under 6 rounds... At any point during those 6 rounds were any of the PC's in danger of being killed?

Is taking a single hit from an alleged "Mythic" monster even a concern for any of them? If not, then how is that monster "mythic"?

I think HP in general is an overused defensive factor for both PCs and NPCs. It leads to number bloat which is just going to slow the game down. Bigger HP pools leads to seeking more damage which will eventually lead to the need to inflate them again.
I'd much rather have more active mitigation, recovery, and avoidance features than just treadmills of bigger values.

In other RPGs that don't have exponential HP increases; HP = meat points, and they typically have some other 'meta' currency to mitigate the occasional bad roll or lucky hit: "hero points". WFRP fate points, CoC luck points etc..

D&D traditionally does not have a 'hero point' meta currency, because for D&D the HP increases per level (HP Bloat) fill in for that. Which of course has always muddled the waters of: 'what do HP represent"...

HP Bloat is D&D's 'Hero Point' meta mechanic. Hit Points in D&D are 'meat points' and 'hero points' all rolled into one.

Pre 3e D&D had limits on that though as PCs stopped gaining hit dice around level 10 or so... Not so much in the post 3e game. Now PCs gain hit points every level.

This of course leads to scaling issues with the math in every subsequent edition of the game. Which is why they all have issues the higher in level the game progresses. Stuff like CR, and the right amount of HP for x at high levels are off because it is just too much too playtest and calculate ahead of time given all the variables introduced into the system via spells and class abilities.

The easiest solution to the scaling issue is to side step it.

IMHO people were on to something with the E6 mod for 3.x edition D&D.

One can do similar for 5e, Like this guys "5e Heroic" version:

5e Heroic | Friendly Neighborhood Lizard Man

Why mod D&D 5e, isn't is perfect already? A lot of people get frustrated with high level D&D and tend to avoid it altogether. Typically there's 3 reasons for this: 1. Combat is too s

purplelizardman.com

Of course there is a strong segment of D&D fans that find such restrictions after a given level abhorrent.

So in that case, Just pile on the HP...

 

[overgeeked]

IMHO It is the PC's that are overtuned.

Exactly. But most players go apoplectic if you even suggest anything that limits or hinders the default power level of the PCs in any way.

Of course there is a strong segment of D&D fans that find such restrictions after a given level abhorrent.

Exactly. So...

The easiest solution to the scaling issue is to side step it.

So in that case, Just pile on the HP...

Right. You get dramatically less pushback when you say the monsters are undertuned than when you say the PCs are overtuned. It's easier to just rewrite the entire Monster Manual to actually provide something resembling a challenge to the PCs as they are written than it is to rewrite the PCs to match the monsters. Why? Because the players will freak if you touch the PCs' power level.

 

[Stoutstien]

I agree there's a lot of good angles when you're dealing with games that cap the linear progression at a lower level and opens up the later levels for different avenues. For 5e E11 is my favorite spot. Enough a health and resources to make it through long days and six level spells are just about the cusp where they can largely impact the game without ripping away at the seams.

 

[Jaeger]

Right. You get dramatically less pushback when you say the monsters are undertuned than when you say the PCs are overtuned. It's easier to just rewrite the entire Monster Manual to actually provide something resembling a challenge to the PCs as they are written than it is to rewrite the PCs to match the monsters. Why? Because the players will freak if you touch the PCs' power level.

I do find it fascinating that players will cling to that higher power level - even when they are just as aware of the issues that result from it as the GM.

IMHO D&D could have used a big dial-back and rethink on this issue during the 5e playtest - but that ship has sailed...

 

[overgeeked]

I do find it fascinating that players will cling to that higher power level - even when they are just as aware of the issues that result from it as the GM.

I'm not so sure. In my experience, if they're aware of it at all (not a given), they expect the DM to not touch anything and let the PCs simply steamroll over everything...they tend to prefer the power fantasy over actually being challenged.

IMHO D&D could have used a big dial-back and rethink on this issue during the 5e playtest - but that ship has sailed...

Quite.

 

[Xeviat]

Combats are designed to last 2-4 rounds in 5e so that's the baseline you're working with. 7 rounds is a long combat.

To be clear, this is 7 rounds of a mythic, so 2 regular fights. This was basically 3ish rounds for each phase, with wasted turns because of positioning due to the setpiece.

 

[FrogReaver]

yup, a big thing I hope they address in 5.5

monster (especially ones meant to be solo) need better action economy, and more staying power. Mythic and Legendary are great but also hard to really use in 'normal' encounters. I don't want my 8th level party to face off against 1 legendary, mythic or BOTH legendary and mythic creature every adventure.

I often wonder the size of party and optimization level of players who say this. I've ran 3 person parties and 6 person parties and I can say that party size is a huge factor in consistency and what is hard and not. Optimization level really changes things as well as well optimized characters can often be nearly twice as effective as unoptimized ones.

 

[dave2008]

yup, a big thing I hope they address in 5.5

monster (especially ones meant to be solo) need better action economy, and more staying power. Mythic and Legendary are great but also hard to really use in 'normal' encounters. I don't want my 8th level party to face off against 1 legendary, mythic or BOTH legendary and mythic creature every adventure.

If you want a monster to be a challenge, but don't want it to be a mythic or legendary, just pick a much higher CR monster. That will have much more HP and do more damage without the complexity of legendary actions.