Mearls idea on modifiers in D&D

[Henry]

Again, I fail to see the problem. Most of those spells don't interact with eachother, such as Mass Bear's Endurance. Concealment doesn't stack, so, you only worry about one of them. Location dependence is what a battlemap is for.

Obvioiusly, YMMV, but, I'm looking at this and thinking, ok, what's the problem?

OK -- the bear's endurance overlapped rather than stacked with two of the players, but because they misunderstood that, they added more CON than they should have.

The wall of limbs means that I had to check entanglement on everybody who was in the area.

The vortex of teeth has a hole in it that I often forget about (even withit being drawn on the map, it looks like another spell effect, than an area where the vortex isn't working).

Wall of force means that fireballs and stuff don't affect things past the wall; it's not a problem, per se, but it's another to keep track of.

Fog cloud offers concealment and visibility to the mix, and many times the players or I forgot about miss chances in the fog.

Many times one or MORE of these effects were on top of one another, meaning someone in those areas had several extra checks to make.

Took us an hour to do fifteen rounds of combat with four players.

Granted, this rarely happens in my game, and I was taking some time before the game to prep for all the buffs, but, once the game started, it was no problems.

Here's the question: How did you prep for the buffs? Were you the player, and knew what the party was going to cast? Were you the DM, and the party told you what they were going in with? How'd you prep for something where you don't know what the party's going to throw? Also, if your players are good with keeping up, this is great; on the other hand, if you're like us, and didn't realize what type of bonus a given spell gave, you're going to get it wrong, and possibly to an extent that the who combat feels kind of "cheated with."

The complexity problem with D&D is with its MAGIC SYSTEM!!?!

No...really!?

Say it ain't SO!!

So...rework it. Make the magic more playable. I actually think it's cool that characters have a few buff spells they can use, or items that buff SOME of their abilities.

I didn't say it was the magic system, smarty it's the confusion in the spells themselves. I still think the naming is a good idea, as you said, but the more you limit them, the more players dislike it.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Hmmm. Some combats I'll see my players buffed up (3.0) to the teeth. Eight characters with up to a dozen spells draped over them. Okay, the casters with Extend/Persistent tend to be the worst about it. At 20th level the durations can be extreme.

We have a bard/rogue, druid, cleric, wizard/loremaster/AoO, fighter/duelist, rogue/DD, ranger/rogue and a monk. There is virtually no special effect that the party does not have access to. When they fought the dragon they were spelled up to the nines. (Of course, he led them to an underwater antimagic zone mwa-ha-HA!) They have an Orb of Storms so they can even apply weather mods on command.

Is it a pain? Yes and no. My table rule is that I will remind you of penalties but not bonuses. I'll remind you that you are poisoned, slowed, cursed, shaken, ill, blind, deaf, confused, and suffering level drain. If you forget bard song, spikes, enlarge and bull's strength on your attack I don't care.

When the buff spells start exceeding 2 or 3 per person, each character gets a spell sheet that lists the spell, who cast it, when it expires, and the short-short version of the effect on the PC. They try to keep a cumulative modifier list at the bottom.

The game is complicated but trust me, Archaissus the lich envoy of the Maggot of Unlife has layers of defenses.

 

[Gundark]

"Burden the players."

Oh man, if this wasn't ENWorld there'd be a blue streak across the screen.

Anyway...

If the players feel "burdened" by thier mods...

THEN THEY DON'T NEED TO USE THEM!

If it's too much trouble for them to keep track of...

I ain't doing it, so they don't get them.

Yep yep yep....I quoted this for truth. Wow....burden the players...why I otta.....grrrrrrr

 

[Baron Opal]

divine favour, bardic music, GMW, magic circle against evil, bless, rage, cleric armour enhancing wotsit whose name I forget, funky prestige class abilities; not to mention concealment/displacement/blur/blink/invisibility, assorted dodge bonuses, fighting defensively with or without tumble, combat expertise, power attack...

Sure, most of these things first turn up at low level... but at high levels you tend to get all of them at once, which can lead to PC/DM overload.

Yes, that's exactly the point.

In another system that I play in, as you go up in level you gain better magic, but the bonus doesn't stack with lesser spells. So, the cleric can cast a spell that grants +2 to damage, but then there is no bonus to casting the +1 version. Also, there is no bonus for the magic user to cast the +1 or the +2 version, either.

So, for example, in D&D, it is all well and good for the bard to inspire with his music, and it might have a different uses / day or duration or whatever, but if the bard is singing there should be no added inspiration gained when the cleric casts bless.

Also, having about 5 different common bonus types and 3 different rare bonus types would be sufficient, I think. That's my current goal when I redesign my D&D / Arcana Evolved hybrid and print out a new Player's Handbook for each of my players.

In my vast and expansive free time, that is.

 

[JohnSnow]

See, to me, other than the whole "what stacks vs. what overlaps," this is primarily a hardware problem. It's too hard to remember. Just like the relative positions of characters was hard to remember without some kind of "game board."

My solution is the following: *looking directly at Fiery Dragon guys*

For environmental conditions, steal from the Zone concept in Mastering Iron Heroes.

For instance you might have something that says:

Storm-Tossed Ship (Condition Zone): Balance DC 15; Fall prone in current square/no effect.

or

Fog (Weather Effect): Creatures 5+ ft. away have 20% miss chance.

And so on. Put them all on little cards the DM can drop in the middle of the gaming table or clip to the outside of his screen.

For bonuses, you could have chits that list the various bonuses. Color code the bonus types, so you can tell which ones stack and which don't. For example, you can only have one RED bonus in your attack pool. If you hit yourself with a better red attack boost, it replaces the existing one.

And so on. I mean, good grief...WotC used to make MAGIC. They should know all about "boost" and "penalty" cards.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Something like this on a character sheet can help:

Name					Attack		Damage
Adamantine Greataxe +1			+9/+4		1d12+7
  Divine Power				+15/+10		1d12+10	
    Rage				+17/+12		1d12+13
    Power Attack (2)			+13/+8		1d12+14
      Rage				+15/+10		1d12+17
  Righteous Might			+12/+7		3d6+10
    Rage				+14/+9		3d6+13
    Power Attack (2)			+10/+5		3d6+14
      Rage				+12/+7		3d6+17
  Divine Power + Righteous Might	+18/+13		3d6+13
    Rage				+20/+15		3d6+16
    Power Attack (2)			+16/+11		3d6+17
      Rage				+18/+13		3d6+20
    All Power Attack			+9/+4		3d6+31
      Rage				+11/+6		3d5+34

Usually I also have Charge counted in as well, but with this character I was going for brevity, since he's actually a Barbarian 1/Cleric 9 and spends way too much time casting spells, sadly enough, instead of charging into the fray. Another character has a double axe with each head enchanted differently, and I take into consideration that he'll sometimes use it TWF and sometimes 2H, along with which enhanced head he's using. So, his is quite longer.

So, with a bit of preparation, you don't have to worry about the modifiers that you'll see often.

 

[Lanefan]

Something like this on a character sheet can help:

Name					Attack		Damage
Adamantine Greataxe +1			+9/+4		1d12+7
  Divine Power				+15/+10		1d12+10	
    Rage				+17/+12		1d12+13
    Power Attack (2)			+13/+8		1d12+14
      Rage				+15/+10		1d12+17
  Righteous Might			+12/+7		3d6+10
    Rage				+14/+9		3d6+13
    Power Attack (2)			+10/+5		3d6+14
      Rage				+12/+7		3d6+17
  Divine Power + Righteous Might	+18/+13		3d6+13
    Rage				+20/+15		3d6+16
    Power Attack (2)			+16/+11		3d6+17
      Rage				+18/+13		3d6+20
    All Power Attack			+9/+4		3d6+31
      Rage				+11/+6		3d5+34

Then add in what Bull's Strength might add (variable), area effect assist spells (prayer, bard song, etc.), and so on...then change it all next session when you pick up a different weapon. Yikes!

Still, I think I'll try this for my Ranger for tonight's session, see how it works.

Lane-"too many numbers make my head hurt"-fan

 

[ashockney]

Check out this thread for another in depth discussion on "mods"

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=93424&page=1&pp=40

 

[ashockney]

Let's take JUST the on-the-fly stuff that you manage while you're conducting a combat. Each combatant can be subject to up to 49 different conditions (flying, prone, flanking, etc.).

Oh, and there are 149 different "modifiers" to those conditions (uncanny dodge, blindfighting, obscurement, etc.)...

That's just in the SRD people.

That's not attack rolls, armor classes, damage, and hit points, and all the things that will modify them.

That's just "condition" and "modifiers".

Good luck, high level DM's!

 

[Hussar]

Here's the question: How did you prep for the buffs? Were you the player, and knew what the party was going to cast? Were you the DM, and the party told you what they were going in with? How'd you prep for something where you don't know what the party's going to throw? Also, if your players are good with keeping up, this is great; on the other hand, if you're like us, and didn't realize what type of bonus a given spell gave, you're going to get it wrong, and possibly to an extent that the who combat feels kind of "cheated with."

By and large, predicting player buffs isn't all that hard. If the party has a bard, then you can pretty much count on bardic music. After playing together for a while, I find that most players tend to stick with things that work. Sure, you get surprised by the odd thing, but, by and large, it's not all that much of a shock usually.

Also, go back upthread a bit. I insist on spell cards. If you drop a spell or affect, I tell the players to have it written up on a small card beforehand. Actually, since now I play on OpenRPG, we use chat nodes. Cast the spell by double clicking on the node. The node gives the basics of the spell all the time and we just note it on the battle map.