Mearls idea on modifiers in D&D

[jmucchiello]

From the chorus of QFTs, I think we all agree that named bonuses is an excellent idea in principle. So, how about we have a discussion about how many we need and which ones?

Actually, it's not the number of bonuses that is the problem, it's that the pool of bonuses is not uniformly applied. Deflection only applies to AC, Enhancement can apply to ability scores, the armor bonus of magic armor, the attack bonus of a magic weapon, etc. Luck bonuses apply to all rolls, but morale bonuses generally don't affect skills. If the list were uniform* and finite, you could just give them all a place on the character sheet and not have to worry about losing them.

* dodge and circumstance bonuses stack, other bonuses don't. Logical in theory but annoying in practice. Uniform above also asserts that you should be able to figure out the bonus type without having to look up the item/spell. But that goal may be unattainable.

 

[Nyaricus]

Matter of fact, I think this might be worth a new thread...

I also think this is worth a new thread in HR

Here it is

 

[Plane Sailing]

It only affects that character, his player should deal with it.

But it is a problem for the players as much as (more than?) the DMs... for those of us with laptops where we write autocalculating spreadsheets, it's fine. For the two guys who use DMgenie for their characters it's fine. For the three guys who have everything written out on paper it is a nightmare, and always slows things down as they try to calculate which particular combination of things is currently in play on him.

And the whacky thing is - it doesn't have to be this way. It could be done a different way.

BTW, you've really missed out through not having a bard with you. They are the greatest force multiplier a party can enjoy. Even if nobody wants to play one, get one as a cohort or something. Their bardic inspiration has turned more than one battle I've participated in, and if you include all the extra damage (or extra blows that landed) as a result of bardic inspiration, they worked out as the biggest damage dealers in the party

Cheers

 

[Hussar]

I wouldn't mind it if we tracked ONE spell effect on a battlefield, but we've been in battles complicated enough to track 5 or 6 at one time! (lessee...Vortex of Teeth, Mass Bear's Endurance, Entangle, fog cloud, Wall of force, AND Wall of limbs, from memory!) Of those, three either gave temp bonuses, or penalties of concealment, movement, or vision, and one was dependent on where you were standing in it as to whether you took damage or not (vortex has an "eye" in the middle!)

Again, I fail to see the problem. Most of those spells don't interact with eachother, such as Mass Bear's Endurance. Concealment doesn't stack, so, you only worry about one of them. Location dependence is what a battlemap is for.

Obvioiusly, YMMV, but, I'm looking at this and thinking, ok, what's the problem?

In the last battle we had, the party had the following buffs:

Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Bear's Endurance, Water Walking, Protection from Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Bless Weapon, Air Walk, Entropic Shield, and multiple Death Knells for scads of bonus hit points, as well as rage on the barbarian. Then we added True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, a spell that lets the cleric monitor several people at once and heal them from range, flying opponents with fly by attack, a Fiendish Elder Earth Elemental, a cauchemar Nightmare and a wild elf blackguard with poisoned attack.

Took us an hour to do fifteen rounds of combat with four players.

Granted, this rarely happens in my game, and I was taking some time before the game to prep for all the buffs, but, once the game started, it was no problems.

 

[jmucchiello]

But it is a problem for the players as much as (more than?) the DMs...

No, it isn't. My character sheet (and the one most of my group uses) has a summary page where all stats are easy to read. It also has a spot where all calculated values are broken down by bonus type so you can find out what part of your AC is deflection bonus and which part is armor bonus. But the most important part of the sheet is that there is space in summary area for temporary bonuses. When prayer goes up, a little +1 is written in the temp box next to AC. When haste goes up, the +1 becomes +2 (some folks note it with two "+1" notes). This is bloody easy. It's fast. It is rarely a problem. The only thing that is important to remember is if you already have a luck bonus, prayer doesn't help. Guess what? The guy with the luck stone wrote this comment on his character sheet next to his summary AC to remind himself not to bother with prayer modifiers. After 15+ levels of doing this, it is second nature to him (or anyone playing his character when he isn't there).

My friends and I aren't geniuses (well them anyway ). We're just thorough. After a few weeks of being thorough, it's second nature to apply bonuses correctly and quickly. If your character sheet does not make this easy for you, perhaps you need a new character sheet. Funny you mention spreadsheets though because that is what my character sheet is. There is the summary page where the calculations are hidden so that you don't have to hunt for stuff during normal play. And there are supplementary pages that contain the math. Literally, each possible type of bonus is given a space on that page. There are also scenario boxes on that page: in an anti-magic shell, touch AC, incorporeal touch AC, etc. At 1st level it's a very empty page, and seems like a waste of paper. At 28th level, there's a lot stuff written in on that page, and that paper is pure gold when odd circumstances occur.

 

[reanjr]

Bard? Who plays a bard? Never actually seen one in the game. Protection from Evil? Once in a while, certainly not too often. Combat Expertise? First time I saw this was when I took as a player last year. In the past three years, that's the only time. Fighting defensively? Seen once in three years.

Who actually does all these things in the same fight?

About half of the parties in my gaming group have bards. Admittedly, Protection From Evil isn't a common spell, but both Combat Expertise and fighting defensively are common tactics.

Perhaps your group fights against only a couple of different kinds of enemies for which these options are not useful. For example, giants have low AC, high attack bonus, and are perfect targets for Combat Expertise or even fighting defensively. If you can avoid a giant's blow, it can make a huge difference in the combat.

 

[reanjr]

Funny you mention spreadsheets though because that is what my character sheet is.

Man, there is a serious problem if Excel is required to play a game.

Unless it's a flight simulator (bonus points if you understand this joke)

 

[blargney the second]

I'm pretty good at artithmetic, so a multiplicity of modifiers is only a little annoying for me. Even so, I frequently miss one or two.

For my fellow players who are dyslexic and/or not as strong on arithmetic, mods are a lengthy and harrowing nightmare.

 

[Mark CMG]

Most players I have DMed for seemed quite capable of remembering and adding up a group of one digit numbers for combat. I don't penalize anyone for taking a moment to do so or for other players giving them a quick bit of help. If I see someone having trouble, once we've quickly gone through it the first time we jot the total down on the edge of the battlemat and when their turn comes around I simply ask them to roll a d20 and add the total we came up with the first time. I also have people who are prone to regathering their dice and hunting for them again each time seperate the needed ones at the beginning of their first combat round.

Modifiers aren't "big math" (it might be the simpliest math anyone can do) and some players like have goals they can readily quantify (e.g. If I get ahold of a better sword, my combat modifiers move into double digits).

 

[Job]

I cheat. I use DM Genie on a laptop to track and report all of those modifiers.

If a modifier effect is obvious (like a Bless spell or Slow spell or a Dex loss), then I inform my players something is afoot, but sometimes I keep the modifier secret. If a player asks to verify the modifiers that DM Genie is currently showing in effect (and my players occasionally do), then I usually give them a full update.

I love the idea mentioned above with using index cards to remind the players! Even though DM Genie does accurately track all modifiers that are triggered, it's nice to keep reminders in front of all of the players since they aren't allowed to look at my laptop.

Job.