Mearls idea on modifiers in D&D

[Plane Sailing]

I just wanted to say that mods are great and often underrated. Of course, keeping track of mods can be difficult - they go on holiday, or move house and are without internet access, but even given all that, some mods are really good friends...

What?

 

[tetsujin28]

I agree with you.

And another secret is: it doesn't even matter THAT much.
If I'm off by 1 there is a 5% chance that it changes the result and nearly a 100% chance that it has no impact on the fun of the game.

Exactly. +/-2? Who cares? I don't even bother with modifiers until they reach +/-5. Of course, my players don't know that

 

[Agamon]

Burdening the player? Burdening the player?

No kidding. Player? More like slacker.

 

[BryonD]

Of course, my players don't know that

THAT'S what it is all about!!!!

The players are all sitting around deep into their characters as they are fighting for their lives.
If the DM makes an error and then lets it rattle him, or gets hung up on it, everyone gets yanked out of their imagination and into the number cruching.
If the DM makes an error and keeps a straight face a plows ahead, the players never even know.

Unlike you I do try to maintain every modifier. But I don't get worked up about it. If I miss one then I miss one. There have been times I found that I f'ed up. I've learned not to sweat it. If I think it needs to be fixed, I'll fudge something in the next round. Most of the time I just blow it off altogether. And you know what the player's say at the end of the night? "Great game!" Thats what.

All of us came to the table to have fun. Do what is fun and don't do what isn't. Stopping to stress over every +/- 1 isn't. Keeping your imagination flowing with all the game elements that cause those modifiers to exist IS fun. And for me that, combined with some simple cheat sheets I always keep at hand, is all I need to stay more than close enough for fun.

 

[jmucchiello]

All of our character sheets have boxes next to the various stat boxes where modified stats can be noted temporarily. So when haste goes up, you immediately write in the boxes next to AC, ref save and the attack bonuses of every weapon, the new values. When the spell ends, you erase them and just use the printed value. We've never had a problem with this.

Common buffs (haste, prayer) are sometimes printed right on the sheet. Our barbarian printed his character sheet twice, double sided. When he rages, he flips the paper over and updates his current hit points. Simple.

I'm also confused by there being a lot of buffs at high level. Other than prayer and haste (and the cleric's occasional righteous might) what other buffs are there? Most characters have +4 or better versions of the stat boosters already worked into their sheet making the animal buffs unnecessary.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

"Burden the players."

Oh man, if this wasn't ENWorld there'd be a blue streak across the screen.

Anyway...

If the players feel "burdened" by thier mods...

THEN THEY DON'T NEED TO USE THEM!

If it's too much trouble for them to keep track of...

I ain't doing it, so they don't get them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm also confused by there being a lot of buffs at high level. Other than prayer and haste (and the cleric's occasional righteous might) what other buffs are there? Most characters have +4 or better versions of the stat boosters already worked into their sheet making the animal buffs unnecessary.

You're kidding, right?

divine favour, bardic music, GMW, magic circle against evil, bless, rage, cleric armour enhancing wotsit whose name I forget, funky prestige class abilities; not to mention concealment/displacement/blur/blink/invisibility, assorted dodge bonuses, fighting defensively with or without tumble, combat expertise, power attack...

Sure, most of these things first turn up at low level... but at high levels you tend to get all of them at once, which can lead to PC/DM overload.

Cheers

 

[reanjr]

I've always done this. The modifiers being applied are usually circumstance which means no worries over stacking. It also keeps the players guessing a bit and not whittling the game down to formulae. And as Mike suggested, it speeds up play considerably over trying to get the players to remember this stuff.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd hate to play 3.5e without my laptop at the gaming table.

My problem isn't with the modifiers per se, it is with the knock on effects and the overlapping/stacking thing.

Penalty to Strength? That affects melee attack and damage (but not missile attack) and carrying capacity (can you move in your armour?) and several skills and...

Raging? That affects strength (see above) and Con (fort save, hit points, endurance checks) and AC and will save but only against certain specific effects.

The psychic warrior who uses their version of enlarge, and offensive precognition, and defensive precognition, and prescience, and a couple of other buffs is bad enough, but when he gets hit by a targetted dispel that takes down some but not all of the effects, and he is then inspired by the bard but targetted by an enemy prayer spell and hit by ray of enfeeblement...

I'd hate to try and manage that without it all calculated into my spreadsheet.

I've mentioned it before in other threads about what makes 3e more complex in my eyes; I think the plethora of transient modifiers with the minutiae of overlapping and stacking details are a big part of it. I'd almost be tempted to say that large numbers of transient modifiers is THE distinguishing feature between D&D (and by extension, d20 games?) compared to the other RPGs that I've had experience over the years.

My RPG experience is far from exhaustive, but I know that I've had lots of fun with RQ, Traveller, 1e and other games where transient modifiers were not such an integral part of the game.

Cheers

 

[MerricB]

Occasionally I think I'm playing a completely different game than a lot of people, as I don't really have a problem with the modifiers.

Sure, I have players who just can't remember it when a single bless spell in effect, but it's never a big problem.

Cheers!