Mearls idea on modifiers in D&D

[green slime]

I don't see general bashing of 3.0 mods as much as this concept, writ large over multiple groups, mine included. If all of us, players and myself, could keep better track of mods, it wouldn't be an issue. However, I say why fight a human behavior that's that pervasive, for the sake of entertainment? If it were, say, for raising your kids, or keeping your job, it'd be one thing. But the last thing a lot of people want to do is make too much bookwork for their gaming, and there's got to be some form of compromise line without it getting too problematic. As it is, "burdening the players" is the LAST of my worries, because each one of them individually has far less info to keep track of than I do.

I agree with what you are saying, but part of the cause of this problem, is that many people are not familiar enough with the rules, (some players seem barely able to remember which die to roll for an attack roll) or while others (myself included) lose track of all the modifiers. Why do they (I) lose track of all the modifiers? Because there are lots of changes? Because in the excitement of the game they got carried away? There are a million different reasons.

Well, what ever the reason, there are really only three ways to go:
1) Increase the book-keeping done during the battles to better manage all the modifiers and their durations.
2) Decide it isn't worth the book-keeping hastle and just enjoy the game anyway, as it is.
3) Change the game through house rules, removing spells/conditional modifiers/certain feats and abilities.

With point three, you are back into some form of book-keeping once again, but on a different level/scale. Where do you draw the line? Because, in 3.X modifiers are a big part of the game. (Blind, Deaf, ensorcelled, drugged, poisoned, diseased, flying, climbing, jumping, carrying a medium load...), and then you still know that sooner or later you are going to forget a certain set of modifier's anyway.

With point two, you decide it isn't really a problem and ignore those times everyone forgets some modifier or three, but every so often someone gets a bit of a niggle on about it, because of some bad consequence (Character death, bad turn in story, TPK, whatever)

Which really only leaves point one left, and so you are stuck facing a stark reality: In 3.e we need book-keepers. No, it isn't a good thing. But being a bit more fastidious about things helps make a smoother game (no, I didn't say necessarily more enjoyable, nor better).

I'm lucky, I have a player who is well organised, and keeps good notes of what happens when during the battle on our initiative list, which includes when spells are cast. So it is a simple thing to cross check before calculating all the mods, and everyone usually helps.

 

[Psion]

Boy, I disagree; I've done this for years.

I was about to say.

The players only need roll what's on the sheet, add it, and give it to me. I'll figure out the DC. I might tell the player a modifier, but generally, I factor difficulty into the DC.

Course, I lean pretty heavily on the "GM's best friend" rule, but it hasn't failed me yet.

 

[Voadam]

I've been tripped up remembering which end of the equation modifiers go on.

Is firing at someone with cover a penalty on the attacker's attack or a bonus to the target's AC? Mechanically no difference, though I had a PC get ticked when I applied it backwards and he thought given the numbers the attack should have gone differently.

 

[el-remmen]

Two things:

1) I think Mearls misunderstood the protests about modifiers (at least how I meant it, as I was one of the people complaining). The DM in his role as facilitator and ref of the game has to keep abreast of what kind of effects (i.e. mods) are changing the landscape of a battle or other scene, so the complaint for me was not about players having to keep track of mods (though that too can be problematic), but rather the DM having to do so - and that is the real problem - as a DM it is not only the monsters you are keeping track of, but also the PCs (though to a lesser and more generalized degree). This solution does not work for me.

And. . .

2) Is keeping the modifiers hidden supposed to be a new idea? I mean, this is something most DMs I know have always done when it was called for. When the PCs cannot easily figure out what is causing a problem (or benefit) or it would be too easy for them to figure out something about their foe from being told a penalty or bonus then the DM keeps it hidden and applies it when necessary using description to explain the results (again, maybe I am weird, but I have always done this as a DM). However, as soon as the players/characters become cognizant of what is going on, I consider it a relief to be able to put the onus of keeping track of the modifier on them so I can keep better track of the 50 million abilities the vrocks they are fighting have and how best to use them.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I really do not mean to pick on Mike. I actually think he is a great guy, but some of his recent ideas have really caused me to twitch. As I was one of the people who complained about modifiers in the RM thread, then I figured I would say something about this latest idea. (Note: We'd love to see you in the New design Philosophy thread, Mike.)

I think this is an utterly horrible idea. As a DM, I cannot keep track of the mods in combat now. I usually just forget about them. In fact, players usually have to remind me if a particular monster has taken a penalty due to their actions.

3e is sick with mods. They are nearly impossible to keep track of at any given time. Everything seems reduced to a +/- mod. Feats, spells, items....they all grant mods that may or may not work at any given time.

And conditional mods are the devil. Period.

Heck, I am surprised that no one has decided to redesign the anti-magic spell. A rust monster only eats a sword. You can get a new sword. An anti-magic zone requires about an hour out-of-game to redesign the entire character.

Mods suck. They suck for the players and they suck for the DMs. I truly miss the days when every effect did not require an advanced degree in modifier theory. And, until we become cyborgs, or computers are cheap and small enough to be of real use at the table, then a game with heavy mods is just going to suck.

Have the complaints about the complexity of high level play fallen of deaf ears? It's the mods, dude, that make it utterly unfun to play.

Please, Mike, let us discuss.

The excessive bookkeeping that I did as a 3e DM is the primary reason I no longer play 3e.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

That works only if the mod applies against all foes. What is one players gets a -2 and another a -4 etc. This type of thing can happen in 3e.

At high level, the number of mods, maneauvers, spells, and conditions is utterly incomprehensible.

And often will change round by round as baddies and players adjust to the changing landscape of the battle.

 

[pogre]

I think it could work in a fun way. I like to put as much on my players as possible just for my ease of play though.

I was thinking I would like some player combat worksheets. The worksheets would have their AC broken down with a couple of spots for modifiers. Their hitpoints, both starting and current. Most importantly their "to hit" bonus - completely broken down with places for modifiers and two or three lines for different weapons and power attack.

I know most folks will say, "Just use your character sheet!"

But, I would like these sheets to be about a quarter of a page that could be used every combat if the players choose. They might use one for a whole adventure or they might make a new one for every combat.

Think of it as fancy scratch paper for the PCs.

Now, I know I could make these, but I'm particularly lazy and wondered if anyone has already done this and knows a place where I could download them?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I've never had this mod problem, and I've run a game up to 21.

But, in any case, I agree with Mike. For example, I was running a game in which the PCs were affected by a very strong one of those illithid stone things that modifies emotions. It gave a -2 to attacks to all the PCs for the duration because of paranoia and trepidation. I just increased all the enemies' ACs by 2 in the surrounding area. Problem solved, and it was taken care of in my notes!

 

[lukelightning]

I've run into confusion over who keeps track of the modifiers. Sometimes the players automatically figure them into their results, and then I apply them again...or sometimes I assume the player figured it in and ignore it, etc. (I'm talking about things like cover, circumstance modifiers, etc. not things like bless, which I let the players worry about).

 

[Valesin]

What a terrible idea. Like the DM doesn't have enough to keep track of already? This sounds like just another let-the-players-off-the-hook idea: making the game easier for the people with the LEAST to do while making it more math for the one with the MOST to do.

If players can't keep track of the very few (compared to the DM running 5-10 NPCs at a time) +1s and -2s that affect their character then they should be playing another game.