Mearls idea on modifiers in D&D

[Mark CMG]

For example, the PCs are aboard a ship fighting a giant octopus. The octopus shakes the ship each round, causing unsteady footing and a -2 penalty to all attacks and checks. It doesn't matter what sort of attack or skill action the PCs take, they face the modifier. In this case, why bother burdening the player?

That's a poor example, IMO. An across-the-board modifier like the one mentioned in the article (Octopus shakes ship, everything is at -2) is *exactly* the kind of modifier that is easiest for a player *or* a DM to handle because it can be discussed openly and mentioned by everyone, since everyone knows about it. I usually let the players keep track of those so I can handle the ones that are less universal for a particular combat, like the additional minus someone has for a cursed weapon they just picked up or a circumstance bonus I am giving someone for a particular action. It also helps keep me free to alert a player that missed a bonus they get for something they forgot or missed.

 

[green slime]

As Umbran said, that isn't what Mearls is talking about. Pervasive modifiers affect everyone, right? And in the situation you describe, I'd still raise the foe's AC by two, and then tell just that one "-4" player that he had to take -2 on attacks. One player remembering a modifier is better and faster than six players remembering a modifier.

Yes. This is true. Somehow this thread has gone from mistating mearl's idea to the general bashing of 3.X mods, which does get out of hand when dealing with high-level large-scale battles with multiple effects in place.

Part of the problem is due to a lack of book-keeping and/or preparation by players.

 

[Henry]

Part of the problem is due to a lack of book-keeping and/or preparation by players.

I don't see general bashing of 3.0 mods as much as this concept, writ large over multiple groups, mine included. If all of us, players and myself, could keep better track of mods, it wouldn't be an issue. However, I say why fight a human behavior that's that pervasive, for the sake of entertainment? If it were, say, for raising your kids, or keeping your job, it'd be one thing. But the last thing a lot of people want to do is make too much bookwork for their gaming, and there's got to be some form of compromise line without it getting too problematic. As it is, "burdening the players" is the LAST of my worries, because each one of them individually has far less info to keep track of than I do.

 

[Mallus]

While I agree that tracking mods can be a headache, the last type I'd get rid of are the situational ones. They make the environment matter, and you can use them to encourage players to do something other than unleash canned spell/move combos during a fight.

 

[Mark Hope]

Yeah, I've been running games like this for years. In fact, for all groups besides my current one, the players didn't have any of their stats. No hit points. No ability scores. No AC. No levels. No modifiers. I handled it all and provided the details through descriptions. You need to make sure that you are super-organised (little 3x5 cards are your best friend!) but once you are up to speed it works great and makes for pretty immersive gameplay.

When I suggested it to my current group, however, they were quite aghast at this approach, and I have yet to bring them around to this way of doing things. One player likes it and another tried it last game and really seemed to get into it. The other players are quite into their rules and crunch, though, and aren't to keen on letting go of the stats. Different strokes and all that. I am easy either way. But it is definitely doable

 

[painandgreed]

Keeping modifiers hidden, like keeping hit points hidden, is an old idea that pops up from time to time. For some people it works and others it doesn't. For most, I'd have to say it doesn't. It's usually easier for the DM to be open about modifiers so PCs can keep track of their own, as well as help remind everybody including the DM that they're there. As a PC it can be frustrating and slow down the game as you try and process your modifiers anyway. If the narative description doesn't match what the modifier is in the player's mind, then you're just heading for headache. Might work for some DMs and groups, but again, not most I've every played with.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I don't have a problem with mods at all.

What I do have a problem with is the pervasiveness of things that grant them.

Permanent effects (like Weapon Focus or Lightning Reflexes) are fine -- you write then in the right spot on your character sheet and that's the end of that.

Non-permanent effects (Bull's Strength, bardsong, Bless, Prayer, etc etc) get annoying. I'd prefer that 4E dramatically cut down on these. I still like environmental penalties(like the aforementeiond giant octopus rocking the boat), but I don't see thsoe as the big problem -- it's the characters buffed to the hilt.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

Mods suck. They suck for the players and they suck for the DMs. I truly miss the days when every effect did not require an advanced degree in modifier theory. And, until we become cyborgs, or computers are cheap and small enough to be of real use at the table, then a game with heavy mods is just going to suck.

As someone who tries to alway puts story-first, and rules later, I'm actually gonna have to agree with the O.P. on this.

 

[Hussar]

For those parties that use buffs a lot. Why don't you use spell cards? I've found that to be the easiest way of keeping track. Get a small card, like business card sized, write on the name of the spell in big letters, the bonus amount and type. Slap the card down on the side of the battle mat and away you go.

I guess I've just never run into this as an issue. There's always a player or two in any group I've played with who is a bit anal and get's the tasking for this kind of thing.

 

[Remathilis]

I usually find a post-it note on the DM screen works wonders. Put it on the front if you want the players to know (SHAKEN: -2 all major d20 rolls) or the back if you need only be concerned (Frank's PC has a +1 sword he doesn't know yet).

Granted, in a long combat the DM screen fills up quickly (what? you like looking at that same art all the time?) but it seems to do the trick.