Mearls' L&L on non-combat pillars

[I'm A Banana]

Really? I would think that, with a "bounded accuracy" type system, advantage with a middling attribute is going to be pretty major. For the sort of DCs I see cropping up in the playtest materials it's worth around +5 to the (effective) d20 roll.

I'd take 2e's or 3e's "You are my friend automagically" Charm Person over the ability to try again on a roll I don't have a bonus in any day.

That's a pretty explicit nerf of a noncombat spell.

 

[Balesir]

I'd take 2e's or 3e's "You are my friend automagically" Charm Person over the ability to try again on a roll I don't have a bonus in any day.

That's a pretty explicit nerf of a noncombat spell.

Oh, sure - sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was as powerful as the old "win button" version. I'm just saying that it's as powerful as skill training for the specific use it's put to, is all. The impression I got from the post I was replying to was that it was underpowered; I don't think it is underpowered, but it's not obviously overpowered, either (which the old version was).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Oh, sure - sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was as powerful as the old "win button" version. I'm just saying that it's as powerful as skill training for the specific use it's put to, is all. The impression I got from the post I was replying to was that it was underpowered; I don't think it is underpowered, but it's not obviously overpowered, either (which the old version was).

It's probably about where it should be for a low-level limited-resource spell (just edging out +3 skill training), I think. It's only underpowered for certain highly limited values of spells/day.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Really not sure what we're all looking for...

I'll repeat mine for emphasis: Hot Pursuit style minigames applied to chase, stealth, climbing, wilderness travel, whatever, that use D&D character skills but add actions and conditions to play.

A game tends to focus on the things you have rules for. "When all you have is a hammer" and all that.

I would like climbing, frex, to be a fun challenge like it is in Tomb Raider, and not just something you breeze by with a roll to get to the fun stuff.

 

[Balesir]

I'll repeat mine for emphasis: Hot Pursuit style minigames applied to chase, stealth, climbing, wilderness travel, whatever, that use D&D character skills but add actions and conditions to play.

I would like climbing, frex, to be a fun challenge like it is in Tomb Raider, and not just something you breeze by with a roll to get to the fun stuff.

All sounds good, to me. I'd want the same for social interaction, too, though, as I'm fed up of the same group of players persuading one another over and over...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'll repeat mine for emphasis: Hot Pursuit style minigames applied to chase, stealth, climbing, wilderness travel, whatever, that use D&D character skills but add actions and conditions to play.

A games tends to focus on the things you have rules for. "When all you have is a hammer" and all that.

I would like climbing, frex, to be a fun challenge like it is in Tomb Raider, and not just something you breeze by with a roll to get to the fun stuff.

Hot Pursuit is a great set of rules. My only beef with it is that, unless you're really familiar with it, it can be pretty hard to ad-lib if it comes up when you aren't prepared.

 

[Remathilis]

You give rules for social "terrain" and "layout" (not to mention social "monsters") in just the same way you do for any other adventure setting. ou explain how they work and give rules for building and interacting with them. Like Burning Wheel does, but adapted to fit the different aims and tenor of D&D.

The problem is such things are an element of the setting. Social terrain in Toril is very different than it is Ravenloft, Dark Sun, or Planescape. You could probably fill a sourcebook alone just creating rules for a half-orc paladin with tourettes trying to convince a xenophobic elven noble into donating his wealth towards a temple of Moradin.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A system that will let me run dynamic and dramatic non-combat challenges. To see what I (and some others) have in mind, check out the skill challenge thread!

At a minimum, I want dramatic conflict resolution. What you describe isn't going to deliver that, I don't think - for example, it doesn't seem to have rules for how many Diplomacy successes are required to persuade someone, nor for evolving the situation dynamically as those checks are made, nor for permitting non-face PCs to play a significant role in the scene.

If "dramatic and dynamic" is just dressing up the term for dice rolling fest then no thanks.

As for permitting non-specialist PCs to participate in the scene and the situation evolving dynamically it happens all the time without die rolls by the DM and players actually speaking, listening, and responding to one another. It actually does work. In a roleplaying game, talking to the GM or other players is known as playing the game.

If all of play becomes a check, or series of checks then the human element is lost. It also actually infringes on full participation because of the obsession with the numbers, and wanting to win at the minigame.

Perhaps Ed has something to say but because of abysmal social skill bonuses, he doesn't do anything but aid Bob, the diplomancer. The problems of both 3E and 4E was the tight winding of every aspect of play to rigid mechanics.

 

[Fifth Element]

As for permitting non-specialist PCs to participate in the scene and the situation evolving dynamically it happens all the time without die rolls by the DM and players actually speaking, listening, and responding to one another. It actually does work. In a roleplaying game, talking to the GM or other players is known as playing the game.

What if you have a character with a 6 Charisma but you're a powerful personality yourself? That's the problem with having a social mechanic built into the most basic nature of characters (a Charisma ability score), then advising that players just freeform social interactions. What good is the Charisma score if you're just going to ignore it?

 

[pemerton]

If "dramatic and dynamic" is just dressing up the term for dice rolling fest then no thanks.

<snip>

If all of play becomes a check, or series of checks then the human element is lost.

Did you read the thread I linked too? Do you have any familiarity with systems like Burning Wheel, HeroQuest or 4e skill challenges actually run in accordance with the guidelines as written?

I'm guessing "no" as the answer to both questions, because then you would know that your characterisation here of complex non-combat resolution mechanics bears no relationship to what I'm talking about.

In a roleplaying game, talking to the GM or other players is known as playing the game.

Thanks for letting me know - I've obviously being doing it wrong for the past 30 years!