Mearls New Campaign

[Sunseeker]

I like Race as Class. It makes perfect sense to me that different races would have a different take on stuff. A dwarven fighter should be different from a human one.

Ah, but there's a lack of options? I think that should be addressed by making it easier to make classes. If I could do that, then it would be easier to model how a halfling would view clerical activities in my campaign.

In 3e+ D&D has dealt with this with feats, but why not eschew feats and make a way for us to create balanced classes reasonably well? Other than the fact that it would cut into the need to buy new books if they came up with a way to do it.

Why not keep feats and use them to make alt-fighter builds that are practical alternatives but racially flavored. Why clone an entire class because one race likes to use hammers instead of bows? A Dwarven Fighter and an Elven Fighter are both reasonably going to take things like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, ect... There's no need for "Elven Bow Mastery" which gives the same bonus but can only be taken by Elves, or "Dwarven Hammer Superiority" which again, does all the same things, except is Dwarf-only.

Problematically, if we made these feats BETTER than their normal-class counterparts, the baseline "human" fighter would end up being inferior to the Dwarven or Elven one. Not to mention it would drive anyone who wants to be an effective melee fighter they'd have to go dwarf, an effective ranged fighter: elf.

That's why races shouldn't be classes, because all they turn out to be is either under-powered, over-flavored clones, or just strictly better.

 

[Nellisir]

I assume that the intent is sincere. I have no doubt that Mearls loves D&D and cares about making it a great game.

We know that the development team has been playing all the old editions of D&D, and we also know that they've been steeped in fourth edition for the past few years. I think this is merely an attempt to keep a wide perspective during the design process.

I had the pleasure of playing D&D with Mearls once, with a group of his friends, and prior to his work with Monte Cook (although there was probably discussion underway; it was an Arcana Unearthed game). The game was great, but 2 things really shone through. One was his love of D&D, and the second was his absolute passion to making things better. We spent a good amount of time before and after the game ripping apart the warforged and redesigning them to integrate better and smoother into the rules, and that was simply something that came up in the course of discussion.

I would have loved to play more sessions with him, but it was a long commute for me, and frankly my fanboyish admiration may have been a little over the top.

 

[GM Dave]

There is always better.

There is always worse.

People will always compare apples to oranges and apples to other apples.

Even if you made two classes and their abilities balanced then the next person to write an article for their blog, splat book, or magazine would work to 'correct' a problem that they perceive and upset the balance.

Unless a game is frozen in time (which DnD is always a living game that grows and develops with the players, GM, and hobby) it will never be equal or balanced.

There are no Kg or Meter sticks kept in a science institute to which everything can be properly measured and fixed.

Instead, we are in a constant battle between this person feeling that elves should be 4' tall, dressed in green, and shooting 6' long bows (how does a 4' tall person hold and shoot a long bow designed for tall adult males ? ) while another sees them as 5' 8" tall, dressed in chainmail, and wielding lances from horse back. These are just two of a whole spectrum of 'elves' that range from 2' high Santa helper/keeble style to over 6' tall Dark Sun.

Even the idea of 'human' is highly variable in the real world with heights ranging from a little over 1' to over 8'. Physical and Mental capabilities are also fairly different and this is without the aid of mutations that a 'magical' world and cross-breeding could bring to the 'human' standard.

Race should be mostly fluff with the inclusion of some options to create an appearance of connected features. The connection of those features should be in the hands of the player and the GM.

The idea of Elves liking bows appears in some fantasy fiction but I know of many others where they like swords or spears or hatchets or poison or double hand axe blades (Warhammer fantasy rocks with High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves that use other things then just bows).

Even if the GM says their world has 'typical Tolkein' elves that live in elvan conclaves, the player has the right to say, 'but I was raised in a city with Men and spent my youth becoming an expert with a musket.'

 

[Salamandyr]

There are some oft overlooked advantages to race as class, but I don't think it's necessarily a core feature of the game. To me the core it's just about the simplicity of it. If 5e came to me in a 96 page book that was essentially a reprint of the basic set, except with separate class and race, and maybe themes, I'd be thrilled.

In fact, I think themes would be a great way to handle races, that would preserve the feel of the humanocentric world that race as class gets you.

 

[Scribble]

I get that people have their opinions on how they like to play, but I'm not sure what the problem would be if the core was race/class combined, as long as the option to split them was there.

My reasoning is simplicity. It's just one less thing to pick if you want to throw down a dude real quick. I wouldn't want them to remove the option for separate class race though.

 

[Alan Shutko]

Why not keep feats and use them to make alt-fighter builds that are practical alternatives but racially flavored. Why clone an entire class because one race likes to use hammers instead of bows?

I really want to make the races more different. Right now you're right, there's not a lot of differentiation. I'd like the choice of race to be more meaningful than a few attribute bonuses and the opportunity for racial feats.

I want a dwarven fighter to be substantially different than a human fighter. There should be bonuses they get, but also things that they cannot get. So adding some feats as options would also be countered by here are some things you can't do.

Other items I'd like to mix into class aren't currently covered by feats. I want my elven fighters to get a selection of wilderness-related magic. There have been a few articles on building classes by taking different features of each for your own custom build. For example, here's one by Scott Ludwig. It balances things by different XP progressions, but you get the idea.

 

[Sunseeker]

I really want to make the races more different. Right now you're right, there's not a lot of differentiation. I'd like the choice of race to be more meaningful than a few attribute bonuses and the opportunity for racial feats.

I suppose that depends on how we understand racial feats.

I want a dwarven fighter to be substantially different than a human fighter. There should be bonuses they get, but also things that they cannot get. So adding some feats as options would also be countered by here are some things you can't do.

But no matter which way you cut it, they're still both fighters, which means even if you're the dwarfiest dwarf-fighter around, there's still a number of aspects to what you do that you share with Mr Fighter-Man over there.

Other items I'd like to mix into class aren't currently covered by feats. I want my elven fighters to get a selection of wilderness-related magic. There have been a few articles on building classes by taking different features of each for your own custom build. For example, here's one by Scott Ludwig. It balances things by different XP progressions, but you get the idea.

Realistically, every starter feat could simply have an ability score prerequisite. In fact, you could apply this to class-building as a whole. Heavy armor? 15str/15con. Magic? 15int to have a spellbook, 15wis to have natural magical power, 15cha to have divine/unholy magic.

And so on and so forth. Battlemage? 15str/con+15int/wis. Paladin? 15str/con+15cha. Hexblade? 15dex+15wis/cha, ect ect...

You class would offer say, 5(armor, weapons, power source, uh...2 other things) features that you get to pick at level 1. Feats would then be based on stats or having the prerequisite feature. Later feats would check for higher stats and previous feats.