Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[Scribble]

I do enjoy the articles, as its neat to fool with mechanics and get issues everyone has an opinion on. I like the changes to the ogre mage, but now I feel the CR is too LOW!!

Here's my thinking:

A 5th level party has just gotten access to magics such as fly (hopefully, assuming there's a wizard in the party). But that hardly means they have it prepared or that they have it multiple times).

A creature that can fly at will cannot be followed by a 5th level party. Perhaps one guy can fly...maybe. And that means everyone else will be relying on ranged weapons. With fast healing and a better AC, the ogre mage can take a bit of punishment from ranged weapons.

In addition, with the SA, the orge mage can now do 5d6 +7 damage. That can easily take down a wizard in one shot. And again, 5th level is not so high that you would necessiarly expect a party to have see invisiblity ready to go. So ogre mage can come in invisible, strike down your mage, instantly become invisible again (swift invis) and be ready for more pain. And if the party manages to do some damage, he can fly out of range, heal up, and be ready to go again.

While CR 8 might be too high, I'm thinking CR 7 is a better number. Until you can reliably handle flying and invisible creatures, the ogre mage can be a true terror.

Yeah... but what's he going to do up there while he's flying? He could use his lightning, but only once...

His bow... but it's not that devastating an attack. A smart party won't let something like flying be too much of a problem...

 

[Scribble]

Speaking of said longbow... It's listed as a composite, but the damage listed is only 2d6... I'm assuming typo?

 

[Glyfair]

Yeah... but what's he going to do up there while he's flying?

Turn invisible, sneak behind the wizard and sneak attack him perhaps (using his superior maneuverability)?

 

[Scribble]

Turn invisible, sneak behind the wizard and sneak attack him perhaps (using his superior maneuverability)?

True that... I forgot about his sneak attack.

 

[Cam Banks]

Speaking of said longbow... It's listed as a composite, but the damage listed is only 2d6... I'm assuming typo?

I think adding a Str bonus capacity is extra for composites, no?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[BluSponge]

Unlike the Rust Monster, who's basic premise stayed the same (relatively) the new Ogre Mage is changed completely... So is it still an Ogre Mage? Or a new creature completely?

No, it's not. You could change the name to Ogre General and not miss a beat.

Tom

 

[buzz]

Six years down the line, though, and that's not the case. Many people want to play games that twiddle with the fundamental assumptions -- lower magic, less reliance on items, gestalt, whatever. And with the proliferation of base classes, you're starting to see more parties outside the ftr/rog/wiz/clr paradigm. An original ogre-mage might not be able to go toe-to-toe with a ftr-bar duo, but what if your group consists of a beguiler, druid, cleric, and duskblade?

Like any sort of experimentation, you typically need a "control." Assuming the same default party composition that the core CR system assumes is a developer's control. Start deviating from that and you introduce a whole cascade of issues that need to be dealt with.

On top of that, you then need to inform the end user that the creature was balanced with that alt.party composition in mind, which then means that some DM has to compensate (in reverse, sorta) to adapt it for use with his Ftr/Rog/Wiz/Clr party.

IMO, fiddling with the encounter to adapt to a "non-standard" party is your local DM's job, not the developers'.

 

[Scribble]

I think adding a Str bonus capacity is extra for composites, no?

Cheers,
Cam

Well, yeah but I assumed the reason he made it composite was to take advantage of the strength? (I could be way off...)

They're the same damage as a normal bow without the STR pluses...

Maybe he did it for the extra 10 feet of range?

Dunno... It's not a huge deal, just seems strange to me if it wasn't a typo...

 

[BluSponge]

Since my 1E days, the Ogre Mage always felt like a DM messing with the party. Viola, it's an Ogre with an oriental theme. Ah-ha, you didn't expect that Cone of Cold, did you? Ah-ha, now it turns to gas and runs away. Yeah, it turned invisible and sneaked back to backstab you.

Well Ogre Magi looked different and really didn't associate with ogres in 1st ed. It was a completely different monster. And they didn't have thief abilities, so they couldn't technically backstab you.

There certainly are worse examples of a mish-mash of non-themed abilities (beyond, let's suprise the players). The Ogre Mage was always one that stretched my feel of a living breathing creature, though.

Please say you have the same problem with beholders, remorhazi, lurker aboves, trappers, mimics, piercers...I could go on. Do we really need to argue the ecology of dragons here? Ogre magi are kind of on the same level as Rakshasas, IMHO.

Tom

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have a fondness for the Ogre-Mage because a couple of these with some weaker minions make for an interesting challenge to low-mid level PCs. But it is a really oddball "oriental fey giant" that does not fit easily in a campaign.

The correct "CR" was problematic in all editions. The O-M is likely to get the drop on the party, thus our heroes needs to be tough enough to survive an encounter where the entire party gets engulfed in a Cone of Cold and still eventually prevail. But such a strong party is likely to vaporize the poor monster in less than half a round if they can ever meet in a fair fight.

I like the O-M as an interesting CR5 critter. If you want a taste more like the old edition give it 2, 4, or 6 levels or Sorceror and sub Cold for Fire/Lightning.