Mearls says adventures are hard to sell [merged]

[Erik Mona]

I think that if Wright is correct then 32 - 64 page adventures are better served with a site-based design a la the classic early 80s, late 70s adventures. A DM and a group can bring whatever story and plot they want to a site. The DM can pick and choose stuff to use, with the site serving as a stage that hosts the action.

Exactly.

--Erik

 

[Erik Mona]

Rather than say one is wrong, combine them - Adventures are a hard sell, but there's proof that good numbers can be reached, under the right conditions. You have to be special in some way. TSR did it by uniqueness - they were the only game in town. Lacking that, today you have to find another way to be special. It is done occasionally, but a number of companies seem to have gone under because they weren't special.

This is exactly right. I'm not calling Mike a chump, I'm saying that there is hard proof that adventures _can_ sell. And I'm not just talking about first edition, either. Dungeon sells great. Sunless Citadel sold in numbers that exceed the sales of entire d20 companies, from beginning to Chapter 11. Under the right circumstances, adventures can sell well.

That' what I'm saying.

--Erik

 

[2WS-Steve]

This is exactly right. I'm not calling Mike a chump, I'm saying that there is hard proof that adventures _can_ sell. And I'm not just talking about first edition, either. Dungeon sells great. Sunless Citadel sold in numbers that exceed the sales of entire d20 companies, from beginning to Chapter 11. Under the right circumstances, adventures can sell well.

That' what I'm saying.

--Erik

I'm not sure that a module in the early days of 3e is a good example. Everything was gangbusters back then. I think "The Foundation, a World in Black and White" sold in numbers that exceed the sales of entire d20 companies.

 

[Erik Mona]

Those would be very small d20 companies, but your point is valid.

The Sunless Citadel's sales numbers can be attributed to the proximate release of third edition. Ditto Death in Freeport, Three Days to Kill, Crucible of Freya, etc.

The old first edition sales numbers can be attributed--in part--to the "fad" nature of the game at the time.

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil's sales can be attributed to nostalgia, most likely, and to the lack of competing products.

Dungeon's sales can be attributed to a great combination of good adventures, good production values, and low cost.

You can find an excuse for why any success was a success.

The trick is figuring out how to create the circumstances that will create a success.

--Erik

 

[diaglo]

the adventures in second edition sucked ass worse than the filthiest German porn on the internet. Things improved _considerably_ in the mid 1990s and have basically been getting better ever since, but the TSR modules in the era you're asking about are awful.

They are almost uniformly story-based.

--Erik

PS: There were exceptions, obviously.

quoted for all kinds of truth.

diaglo "i think i need to sit down. i'm quoting Erik Mona " Ooi

 

[dcas]

How much easier can it get to be a DM when you run a module? All the heavy lifting is done for you.

I dunno, ISTM that puzzling out a long stat block in the heat of combat can be difficult. The problem is that the game currently requires either a long stat block, or referencing a book or two to fill out a short one.

What else can they do to make it easier than that?

Making the game easier for GMs.

 

[dcas]

T Foster - true, but, as the site also mentions, no other supermodule went into multiple printings. And, even then, only went into 7. Not the 12 of Unearthed Arcana (if that's the right number). Also, note the bit at the bottom of the page you mention:

I'm sure T1-4 sold quite well, but I'm equally sure it did not sell as well as Unearthed Arcana. But an adventure module need not sell as well as a core rulebook (which Unearthed Arcana really is -- it's not really a splatbook along the lines of The Complete Fighter's Handbook from 2e) in order to be successful.

That said, I'm not a big fan of T1-4 because -- unlike its predecessor T1 -- it really is a story-based module, not a site-based one. I tried to modify it to fit into my campaign, but it is just so heavy-handed on the Greyhawkiness (which I guess isn't a problem if you're running a GH campaign) that I found it impossible (or at least too difficult).

 

[dcas]

no other supermodule went into multiple printings

Not very shocking, by the way; they're just not very good. (OK, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration.)

The A-series modules had problems from jump; they were tournament modules initially and not developed very well. Heck, A4 suggests that characters who were killed in A3 get raised -- by their enemies! I don't have A1-4 any more, but I don't think the shoehorning of the module into the TOEE campaign (A1-4 was linked with T1-4 so that characters could follow the TOEE with the Slavers) was really successful.

(Heck, one might consider T1-4, A1-4, and GDQ as the first "adventure path"! )

I remember S1-4 being very weird (I don't have that one any more, either -- though I do still have the individual modules making up the "series").

 

[Henry]

That's a good guess. I'd say complete failures would regulary sell in the 10,000 to 30,000 range. At 40,000 an RPG would break even. Success would be for books that sold in excess of 60,000 units.

I'm basing that off of an old Bruce Cordell rumor... it was rumored that he noted to some Hasbro middle-manager type that Psionic's handbook (2001) had already generated 50,000 pre-orders, and the response was something like, "why are we producing it, then?" -- in other words, a perception that this was a failure-figure, not a success-figure. But then, as I said, it's a rumor.

 

[rgard]

I actually dig the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde for this reason. It has new prestige classes and other new material germane to the adventure, and even those cutout illustration that were famous (or infamous) in those old 1E modules. I haven't had a chance to read the module in depth yet, but I purchased it on the strength of the format. It comes in a neat folder with the encounter charts printed on the inside and booklets that you can actually remove from the cover and use seperately. It's exactly the sort of thing that I've been wishing that WotC would publish for many years.

Thanks for posting that. I'll have to pick it up.