Mega-Dungeon Crawls and RP

[Mouseferatu]

So, I've been gaming since I was 9. I've played BECMI and every edition of D&D with either an "A" or a number. And yet...

I've never really grokked mega-dungeons.

( [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] has been talking about his own mega-dungeon lately. Scott F. Grey's been running Temple of Elemental Evil. That's what got me thinking of this.)

A bit of necessary context. I don't enjoy pure-combat, or even mostly combat, campaigns. I want combat to be maybe a third of the game. The rest? I want RP (between PCs alone, and between PCs and NPCs, preferably with some of the latter being recurring characters). I want ongoing story. I want to solve mysteries, deal with political intrigue, all of that. I want PCs to build ongoing relationships with NPCs.

Nothing wrong with people who prefer otherwise, but that's how I, ahem, roll.

I'm fascinated by the idea of the mega-dungeon, but I don't know if it's possible to reconcile the concept with my preferred playstyle.

So which is it? Is the mega-dungeon just an experience I'm destined not to like? Or is there some way to run Rappan Athuk/ToEE/Undermountain/whatever in a way that'll mesh with my requirements?

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=1288]Mouseferatu[/MENTION]
I am like you; I like juicy intrigue and in-depth character acting. Sadly, few of my fellow players are as into the play-acting side as me. I did run one mini mega-dungeon (Dragon Mountain) in 4th edition, both because it seemed like it was a good for for my group at the time & because I wanted to experience it.

We had a blast. I'd say the roleplaying was shallow, there was quite a bit of joking and exploration zaniness., and I managed to keep the fights unpredictable and more like kobold puzzle-traps where sheer force of arms was never assured victory. So while we all had fun, I felt pretty tired of the whole thing after 13 sessions. I did have one of my friends say I was the best adventure he'd ever played.

That said, I even included some NPCs that tied into their backgrounds, and provided personal quests for each PC, and despite that the role-playing was shallow. I'd say that's just part of the mega dungeon experience.

 

[Voadam]

I don't know.

I find them fascinating too but don't have a lot of experience with them.

I've played in ToEE and dungeon a day and few others for various lengths of time but never got deep into a mega dungeon for long periods of time. As a DM the Moathouse and say Demon God's Fane are about the size of dungeons I usually run. Those are significant but only 32 page modules.

I own ToEE, RToEE, RA, Castle Blackmoor, Slumbering Tsar, WLD, Ruins of the DragonLords, and probably some others but they are intimidating to think about reading and running.

 

[Agamon]

The only megadungeon I've had much fun with was RttToEE. I really ramped up machinations between the different factions. Still quite a bit of combat, but a fair amount of roleplay still and the fighting had context rather than just being the next group of monsters behind the next door.

 

[GX.Sigma]

So, I've been gaming since I was 9. I've played BECMI and every edition of D&D with either an "A" or a number. And yet...

I've never really grokked mega-dungeons.

( @MerricB has been talking about his own mega-dungeon lately. Scott F. Grey's been running Temple of Elemental Evil. That's what got me thinking of this.)

A bit of necessary context. I don't enjoy pure-combat, or even mostly combat, campaigns. I want combat to be maybe a third of the game. The rest? I want RP (between PCs alone, and between PCs and NPCs, preferably with some of the latter being recurring characters). I want ongoing story. I want to solve mysteries, deal with political intrigue, all of that. I want PCs to build ongoing relationships with NPCs.

Nothing wrong with people who prefer otherwise, but that's how I, ahem, roll.

I'm fascinated by the idea of the mega-dungeon, but I don't know if it's possible to reconcile the concept with my preferred playstyle.

So which is it? Is the mega-dungeon just an experience I'm destined not to like? Or is there some way to run Rappan Athuk/ToEE/Undermountain/whatever in a way that'll mesh with my requirements?

A megadungeon is not about combat. It's about exploration. A good megadungeon can have plenty of mystery solving and political intrigue. (Please note: Undermountain and ToEE are not good megadungeons.)

A megadungeon is an "ongoing story." I don't know why you would disagree. It's a meta-story of a bunch of people slowly exploring an environment, with a bunch of little stories like "that time we killed a demilich with a net." Sure, it's not a three-act play, but RPGs aren't three-act plays anyway.

Bottom line: you need to better define your terms. It's incorrect to say "RP" when you really mean "social interaction scenes." Both combat and social interaction can be roleplaying or storytelling, depending on what kind of game the GM is running. It would help this discussion a lot if you could better describe what you want.

 

[the Jester]

Well, generally, you don't try to eat a whole megadungeon at once. Part of making a good megadungeon is (often, but not always) the idea of returning to it later. The megadungeon itself isn't the adventure; "This criminal escaped justice by fleeing into the megadungeon, go get him!" is the adventure.

A well-done megadungeon will have a bunch of opportunities for stealth, bluffing, diplomacy, etc. Some levels (and sublevels) may be all combat, but others should have factions, weird tricks, magic pools, etc.

So take ToEE for an example. Spoilers if you aren't familiar with it.

[sblock]It's quite possible to approach the temple as a straight-up fight- that's most common, IME- but it is also possible to approach it in disguise, to arrange to be recruited into it, to sneak in through a 'back door', to negotiate one's way in (at least, in some places), etc. It's also full of opportunities to turn one faction against another.[/sblock]

So yes, I think a megadungeon could be fun for you. Would it necessarily? Eh, of course not. But could a good dm and a good group make megadungeon play sing for you? I think they could.

 

[Li Shenron]

A megadungeon is not about combat. It's about exploration. A good megadungeon can have plenty of mystery solving and political intrigue. (Please note: Undermountain and ToEE are not good megadungeons.)

This is what also came to my mind first.
[MENTION=1288]Mouseferatu[/MENTION] my opinion is that a mega-dungeon differs from other environments (e.g. a city, a wilderness region etc.) primarily because nearly every location is potentially hostile, but it's mostly up the players whether that means combat after combat.

Some groups will focus on avoiding combat as much as possible, in which case I'd say exploration will take the spotlight, while others will just assume that combat is unavoidable anyway, or that it takes too much effort to avoid, or they will metagame that every combat must be appropriately difficult thus winnable "unless we do something incredibly stupid", and therefore they'll go with the "kill them and take their stuff" tactic over and over and over again... If they complain that this is boring, they should check with the DM but IMHO more often than not it's player's fault.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I don't subscribe to the "RP vs. ST" dichotomy, so let's just say I want both, where appropriate. Narrative-heavy and RP/character choice-heavy.

That said...

What do you all consider "good" mega-dungeons?

 

[Savage Wombat]

I don't see why preferring a heavy RP adventure game doesn't mean you couldn't enjoy a megadungeon. It's like saying, "I love playing D&D, so I could never enjoy a game of Call of Duty or paintball." It's a different kind of experience, even if it uses the same rules as the game you play. Whether that game can hold your interest as long as your favorite, is a different matter. A lot would depend on who was running the game, don't you think?

 

[MerricB]

What makes a really good megadungeon is making it a living dungeon; when the factions of the dungeon react to what the players have done.

I find this really, really hard to do with published dungeons. Restocking rooms and redistributing encounters is 'harder' when I'm using a printed book rather than scribbled pages of dungeon notes.

When you've got the dungeon dynamic, then factions in the dungeon can come alive, and involve the players in their schemes.

Not that I always achieve that (especially with the Saturday FLGS campaign which doesn't have a stable player group), but it's something I like to think about!

Cheers!