Mega-Dungeon Crawls and RP

[GX.Sigma]

I don't subscribe to the "RP vs. ST" dichotomy, so let's just say I want both, where appropriate. Narrative-heavy and RP/character choice-heavy.

Fair enough. That doesn't really narrow it down, though. What are you actually looking for?

What do you all consider "good" mega-dungeons?

Caverns of Thracia is the classic. Rappan Athuk reads very well, but I haven't seen it in play.

I find this really, really hard to do with published dungeons. Restocking rooms and redistributing encounters is 'harder' when I'm using a printed book rather than scribbled pages of dungeon notes.

Good point. Megadungeons are difficult to fit within the constraints of the medium. Actually, the same is true of all RPG adventures. (This is probably why most published adventures suck--or maybe authors just need to try harder.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

I don't see why preferring a heavy RP adventure game doesn't mean you couldn't enjoy a megadungeon. It's like saying, "I love playing D&D, so I could never enjoy a game of Call of Duty or paintball." It's a different kind of experience, even if it uses the same rules as the game you play. Whether that game can hold your interest as long as your favorite, is a different matter. A lot would depend on who was running the game, don't you think?

Oh, I wasn't saying "I love heavy RP, therefore I can't enjoy mega-dungeons." Rather, experience tells me that I don't particularly care for the experience that is the latter. Since I do like the concept, though, I'm looking for ways to make it more of an experience I will enjoy.

Sure, it partly depends on DM and group, and if it's a group I like, I'll readily choose mega-dungeon over not playing or socializing. But it's just not a gaming experience I like for its own sake.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Oh, I wasn't saying "I love heavy RP, therefore I can't enjoy mega-dungeons." Rather, experience tells me that I don't particularly care for the experience that is the latter. Since I do like the concept, though, I'm looking for ways to make it more of an experience I will enjoy.

Sure, it partly depends on DM and group, and if it's a group I like, I'll readily choose mega-dungeon over not playing or socializing. But it's just not a gaming experience I like for its own sake.

What megadungeons have you experienced?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Fair enough. That doesn't really narrow it down, though. What are you actually looking for?

Let's say "Some of everything that's not dice-centric." Lots of in-character interaction. Lots of interesting plot, overall designed by the DM but sometimes advanced by the PCs. Mysteries that are solved by the players putting clues and their heads together, as opposed to via Int checks.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I just tend to look at the experience as a whole; not sure how to break it down any further.

Caverns of Thracia is the classic. Rappan Athuk reads very well, but I haven't run it. Most published adventures are bad, and megadungeons are no exception.

You know, I had the impression RA was just hack-n-slash. (Good h-n-s, since it was Necromancer, but still...) I may not have given it a fair shake.

I've certainly heard of Thracia, but I'm not familiar with it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

What megadungeons have you experienced?

Several homebrew. A bit of ToEE before the campaign fell apart. Some of Dragon Mountain. Um... At least one other published one I'm blanking on.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Let's say "Some of everything that's not dice-centric."

Plenty of that in a good dungeon experience.

Lots of in-character interaction.

Well, that's really up to the players, so it can happen in any context.

Mysteries that are solved by the players putting clues and their heads together, as opposed to via Int checks.

No reason this can't happen in a dungeon.

Lots of interesting plot, overall designed by the DM but sometimes advanced by the PCs.

Well, there's your problem. Megadungeons don't have any "plot." If you want this, the best you can do is have a linear plot line that runs through a megadungeon--Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is an adventure that did this (badly, but maybe there's some way to do it well).

You know, I had the impression RA was just hack-n-slash. (Good h-n-s, since it was Necromancer, but still...) I may not have given it a fair shake.

It may read like that because it's basically just a list of rooms with monsters in them, but considering (among other things) the "boss" of Level 1 is a CR 10 mimic that literally can't die, there's more to it than h-n-s.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Plenty of that in a good dungeon experience.

*nod* It's certainly possible that I haven't played with DMs particularly skilled at running crawls. (It was nobody's favorite play style, in my groups.)

Well, that's really up to the players, so it can happen in any context.

To an extent, sure. But I'm also talking about building/changing relationships with recurring NPCs, so the DM has to play a part. Um, so to speak.

It may read like that because it's basically just a list of rooms with monsters in them, but considering (among other things) the "boss" of Level 1 is a CR 10 mimic that literally can't die, there's more to it than h-n-s.

Huh. Cool.

 

[Nagol]

Let's say "Some of everything that's not dice-centric." Lots of in-character interaction. Lots of interesting plot, overall designed by the DM but sometimes advanced by the PCs. Mysteries that are solved by the players putting clues and their heads together, as opposed to via Int checks.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I just tend to look at the experience as a whole; not sure how to break it down any further.



You know, I had the impression RA was just hack-n-slash. (Good h-n-s, since it was Necromancer, but still...) I may not have given it a fair shake.

I've certainly heard of Thracia, but I'm not familiar with it.

There's no reason a mega-dungeon can't have all this. It's often the case that the way it is initially presented (adventurers are hostile intruders who usually leave to rest/recover) tends to lead to a 'kill them all and sort the loot later' approach.

Metamorphosis Alpha was in-effect one very large mega-dungeon.

D1-D3 can be considered a mega-dungeon as well as a hex-crawl. Depending on how it is approached by the players and the DM it can present a fair amount or intrigue and recurring characters -- or it can be one very nasty running skirmish.

To get what you want from one, you need to set up the situation.

 

[evileeyore]

Well, there's your problem. Megadungeons don't have any "plot." If you want this, the best you can do is have a linear plot line that runs through a megadungeon--Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is an adventure that did this (badly, but maybe there's some way to do it well).

Not sure if you'd count The Night Below as a megadungeon or not, but to my group it felt like a megadungeon, but was full up with plot, side plot, and fairly evenly split between RP and Combat*.






* Okay, as the Charisma Rogue and Party Diplomat who tried to stop combat before it could begin, it felt like it had lots of RP. But thinking back on it now... I'm remembering being the only one who really ever did any talking...

 

[Emerikol]

I'm not sure about those products you mentioned but my guess is the DM would have to work to make them the way you want.

If designing your own mega dungeon though I have some ideas.

1. The dungeon is the sandbox. So you populate it with all sorts of npcs as well as monsters and you establish factions within the dungeon that are warring for control. The party are independent agents.

2. You put the dungeon beneath a city and you establish all sorts of connections between places in the city and the dungeon below. So sometimes the party will find a secret entrance into someplace in the city or vice versa.

3. Create a rival gang of NPCs that are adventuring in the same mega dungeon.

4. Mix and match what is happening in the city above with what is happening in the dungeon below.

5. Layer in a old story about the dungeon below. Make some long forgotten parts of the dungeon discoverable by the PCs. Such discoveries though will interest the other factions.

6. Provide allies both above and below. Maybe there is a trading post half way down with a friendly proprietor with a potent secret.

7. On occasion though if you need a breather, you can have a discovery lead to something outside the city that requires a wilderness adventure to some distant tower or keep. You go find it and bring it back. This will shift the balance of "power" in the dungeon towards the PCs potentially. It might very well get them an enemy.



Anyway. I believe mega dungeons can be fun but essentially they become the sandbox.