Mental classes in D20 Modern?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

One of the things I've noticed from reading messageboards for D20 Modern - mental classes don't seem to be commonly taken. This is problematic, because any good game will have some combat (well, IMO) and D20 Modern characters are already pretty fragile. If you're going to play a class with few hit points and a low class bonus to Defense, you should expect to get some pretty cool benefits to make up for them.

In one of the two D20 Modern campaigns I've been in, we've had one Smart hero (who basically played a military gun-toting psycho who became a technomage), another took a level of Dedicated because he was a cop and the third was a bona-fide Smart/Dedicated. (Note to new players: don't multiclass the Smart with anything at low levels if you care about the talents!)

In another, a non-FX campaign, only one player wanted to play a mental hero ... a Smart computer and demolitions expert.

Looking at various products I've bought or downloaded (such as from the WotC D20 Modern website) the number of combat-capable mental heroes is seriously lacking. (I'm only talking about non-FX heroes here, however. If they're taking spellcasting or psionic AdCs, then we'll end up discussing those classes, instead of the mental classes.)

In D20 Columbia, probably my favorite D20 Modern product, I saw only one mental hero ... he was a Charismatic with the Coordinate talent. Woohoo! He did take a decent new AdC, which of course cost him the use of the Inspiration talent. The Charismatic class fit that NPC best, but it seems to me people are avoiding using the Smart hero in the same way. Maybe I just need to expand my D20 Modern library.

The Smart Hero

Research Talent tree

Linguist is very useful in an investigative scenario, especially if you have the Decipher Script skill. It's up to the GM to provide villains who can speak a language you don't understand, but this shouldn't be a problem.

Savant is where it's at, however. Some skills, like Computer Use, can have really high skill DCs (for instance, hacking into a heavily-protected computer site without letting the site administrator know you're even there...) - you can look at skill DCs of 50 if you do something like that.

Indeed, this is probably the best skill to use Savant for, although it's use is highly dependent on the tech-level of the setting. (More tech? The skill gets even better.)

On the other hand, you do need to be careful about which skills you apply it to. Applying it to Knowledge (tactics) may make you feel like a big-time military commander, but don't expect any actual in-game impact from taking that talent. For that you'll need Plan.

Strategy Talent tree

From the various free D20 Modern adventures (I didn't read them all, but looked at every single non-FX adventure) the only Smart hero I've seen who was combat capable was in that dinosaur adventure (Team Bravo, the First Assignment) - a Smart hero who couldn't use what is probably his best talent, Plan. (He was alone.) Instead, he used Exploit Weakness. He could really surprise his opponents with how well he fires a Glock pistol, but he does have to survive that one round first. IMO Exploit Weakness is something you take after you take Plan. (Plan for the combat to give all your allies and yourself bonuses and then use Exploit Weakness so you can contribute. This probably works really well with the Field Scientist's Smart Weapon or a Techie's Extreme Machine as well.)

I think the Plan talent is the Smart hero's best feature, and it's too bad you have to wait until 3rd-level before you can use it. Unfortunately, it's not clearly written (IMO) and it's not easy to visualize how you would use it, either.

According to Bullet Points, the Plan takes a minute to "activate". You can spend however long you want "planning" but you have to have that last minute availalbe. The clock starts counting down right after that, giving you 3 to 5 rounds of bonuses.

How would you describe where the bonus is coming from? (eg what kind of flavor text?)

One problem is that, if you can describe the tactics you're using, then why can't anyone without the Plan talent just copy them and get the same benefits?

An example of the Plan talent could be "we approach the bunker out of the most-likely lines of fire" - this could give a Hide bonus (or Defense, except Plan doesn't boost Defense).

Except why doesn't Knowledge (tactics) give you this benefit?

(A Knowledge (tactics) check, DC 15, would probably answer the question.)

Another one could be "we shoot down on them from the crest of the hill" which would give you an attack bonus (and realistically, a Defense penalty ) but again, you don't even need Knowledge (tactics) to figure that out.

If anyone has better examples for the Plan talent, please post them.

Right now I just find using Coordinate to be so much easier to describe than Plan (and my best adventure supplement, D20 Columbia, doesn't have any Smart villains).

I think it would help if we saw a non-FX adventure involving a Smart villain - or more than one. (I say non-FX because I'll throw a fit if the Smart villain is only dangerous because of his zombie minions. Even if he's not actually a spellcaster.) Preferably the villain should use their Plan talent in combat in at least two situations, as well as out of combat, so we can see how to use it. (No more Smart heroes tied to chairs please, ok?)

On another note I keep finding myself comparing the Charismatic and Smart classes. The Charismatic has better saving throws for combat purposes, you can get Coordinate at 1st-level (Plan requires at least 3 levels), and if I'm correct Fast Talk even applies to combat bluffs. (Someone please tell me I'm wrong on that one. )

Finally, how do you use the Trick talent? It seems really weak. I thought it was cool at first (sort of like Taunt) but then I noticed it takes a full-round action to use. I can think of more examples for this one than for Plan.

Charismatic Hero

First things first. As soon as you use FX (and I'm including robots and other kinds of high-tech stuff here) the Charismatic Hero starts to get nerfed. Fast Talk doesn't work on a robot, Charm (gender) has no effect on a nuclear toxyderm, and so on.

Charm Talent tree

Really, I can't find this one to be particularly useful. It does almost nothing in the hands of an NPC except act as flavor text, and except for Intimidate (and maybe even that one) none of the interaction skills work on players. It is useful if they're haggling with the players, though.

Favor could probably use more examples. How high a favor check do you think it takes to make someone "turn to the dark side"? Not literally, of course. Just have them do a tidy job for you...

Fast Talk tree

This one is much better, IMO. It gives you bonuses to that all-important Bluff skill, which is great for getting yourself past police officers so you can examine a crime scene, getting past security guards, etc. If you're really good you can mislead armies, police officers and what not, either avoiding them or setting up an ambush. (If anyone has read Romance of the Three Kingdoms and seen Chen Deng in action, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.)

Most importantly, it's available at 1st-level, and acts as a gateway for two other cool talents.

Dazzle is probably the better of the following talents. It lasts more than one round and gives you a reason to keep taking the Charismatic class other than just boosting the save DC... it stacks with itself.

If only it had an example or two...

Taunt is supposed to be more powerful (and has Dazzle as a requirement) but it only lasts one round.

The latter two talents do not work on player characters however - as far as I can tell. (There's a rumor this was changed in the errata.)

And for the best Charismatic talent tree of all... Coordinate!

You can get it at 1st-level, it lasts for more than one round, and the bonus is immediately noticeable and very easy to describe. Because they all grant skill bonuses, they're all useful to people like business leaders, who love it when their employees work harder. (I would let the skill bonuses apply if using the skill takes more than a few rounds... there's nothing in the talent description that would prevent this, from my recollection.)

Inspiration has exactly the same benefits, and, incidentally, is one of the few ways to boost the damage for using a ranged weapon within the core rules, once you've taken Burst Fire.

 

[Pierce]

Well, my main modern character, Guyzell Cooper, has so far been focussed solely on Charismatic type action. If you're curious,

Spoiler

he's currently 7th level: Charismatic 4/Personality 1/Opinion Maker 2

*. You can see his 3rd level character sheet here. I took Charm (Male) at 1st and Coordinate at 3rd. If you're interested in expanding the abilities available to the base classes, I highly recommend the Modern Player's Guides I & II. I'm working to eventually get the Misdirection talent, which is similar to a Sanctuary spell. He's definitely not combat oriented (he's only actually hit an opponent with a gunshot two or three times), but he's managed to talk the group out of a number of combats and even been able to assist in taking down a "boss" by pulling out his Bible instead of his Smith & Wesson.

*I use the spoiler tags for those fans of the Medallions SH who want to be surprised.

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

I completely agree.

For the most part, the mental basic classes are pretty lacking (mainly the Smart and Charismatic). In D&D 3.x the only classes that have a low BAB are the Wizard and Sorceror, and they get quite a lot of power (through spellcasting) in exchange. The Smart and Charismatic, get not so much.

In our games, we gave all of the basic classes a medium BAB progression and no one has complained...

 

[Hoog]

In my last gaming group we ended up having half of the party being smart or charismatic or dedicated, so we had good smattering of character types. We worked for a goverment agency none of us were really good at combat, but we all had a great tiem when it came to it. AS I remember even our Physical characters were not geared only combat.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'll just have to chime in ... I'll agree that the majority of the Smart class's talents don't see much use (in my games) and I haven't seen a good NPC use them.

I think I'll write an adventure using a Smart villian, after all. I do investigative type games, so that will work out nicely.

In my games, I have a preponderance of Dedicated heroes. For my style game, seems to be the best class ... good investigative skills, good mild combat feats. Dedicated/Smart, Dedicated/Charismatic for the most part. I think I have a pure smart Sculley-style doctor, though ... (Kyong).

Smart really seems to be an auxillary archetype, though. They have huge skill bonuses in alot of places, but nothing to make them stand out in the crowd.

As for Tactics ... I use the skill alot like it was in Alternity ... which is like Plan, but for a larger group. When you move out to ship-to-ship boarding actions? Tactics. Initiative for ship-to-ship combat? Tactics. Whose army has the bigger ... guns? Tactics.

Hopefully that skill will open up a little more when D20Future comes out and there's a necessary focus on larger groups of people and ships.

--fje

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

"Mental" NPCs are not of much use in combat. That is, unfortunately, true.
If you want to make them a threat, they probably need 1.5 x times the regular HD than an Strong/Fast/Tough NPC you want to throw against your characters (that will give them the hp and attack bonus to compete, and some feats to spend on combat)

The Mental NPCs should usually be leaders of organizations, while the physical NPCs are their brutes and proxies to cause trouble (or deal with it, like the PCs).
A Smart Hero NPC is the leader because he has the "master plan" to rule the world.
A Dedicated Hero NPC is the leader because he is really, well, dedicated to the things he does, and is a good example for his followers.
A Charismatic Hero NPC is the leader because he just can impress people and convince them of his ideas.

In a game, a Mental NPC would have some advantages over the physical ones that are purely background based, not mechanically - he is more likely to have a good reputation (he is our local expert in the history of the old mayan cultures), so people would be more likely to trust his word than that of some strong heros claiming he would be the leader of an old mayan cult planning to overthrow the government.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'll just have to chime in ... I'll agree that the majority of the Smart class's talents don't see much use (in my games) and I haven't seen a good NPC use them.

I think I'll write an adventure using a Smart villian, after all. I do investigative type games, so that will work out nicely.

Please do, and don't forget to post a link to that adventure here

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Everytime I've played d20 Modern, I play a Smart Hero. Not sure why...but I like it. The most recent character is a Smart/Dedicated. Really good combination with the right skills. Since the group has no Charismatic Hero, he does all the talking...ironically, he's also the group sniper.

 

[Spatula]

For the most part, the mental basic classes are pretty lacking (mainly the Smart and Charismatic). In D&D 3.x the only classes that have a low BAB are the Wizard and Sorceror, and they get quite a lot of power (through spellcasting) in exchange. The Smart and Charismatic, get not so much.

Smart Heroes get lots & lots of skill points, which IME are pretty vital in Modern (my characters can never seem to get enough). That's before you add in the character's INT mod, which is probably pretty decent.

Charismatic Heroes get the second-best number of skill points (after Smart) and a high Reputation (not that I've ever seen reputation being used in a game).
From what I've seen, the mental base classes are fine as written, assuming your campaign has a mix of combat and non-combat situations.

 

[takyris]

Hmm. A few thoughts.

1) Saying "Smart/Charismatic heroes are weak in a combat-heavy game" is a bit like saying "Strong heroes are weak in my CSI:Interpol game", when said game deals primarily with noncombative jewel thieves. The game is good for what the GM puts into it.

2) Comparing d20 Modern heroes to D&D heroes is not always a great idea. The classes are balanced in different ways and intended for different sorts of campaigns. I know that Joshua Dyal runs a game that uses those classes together, but unless you're really good at keeping plates spinning as a GM, you shouldn't be combining those classes -- and you definitely shouldn't be trying to power-balance them. D&D characters win. Really. Almost all the time. d20 Modern heroes are a fair amount weaker. That's the way the designers wanted it -- they wanted heroes to be afraid of getting caught in a hail of gunfire even at mid-to-high levels. They wanted it to require a difficult and focused choice to have a BAB equal to your level -- and even more difficult for a ranged-attack specialist.

3) Like most things in d20 Modern, this stuff isn't great all by itself. It's all in how you combine it. Back before the errata changed the way the Soldier's tactical aid ability worked, I had a field day with a Smart/Soldier. He was an officer -- not as good a shot as his sergeant or as tough as his men, but if he could set up a battle plan, he could give his boys a much better chance to come out of there alive. (Plan plus Tactical Aid, pre-errata.)

4) I don't know if I'm breaking a rule with this interpretation, but I ruled that the plan-timer doesn't kick in until a predetermined point. If you and the bad guys are 300 feet away from each other, and you're going to spend the next three rounds moving in at a jog, it seems lame to have the plan expire by the time you close -- especially if the plan is "Okay, as soon as we're in close, Billy, you hit them from the side, Tom, come in straight up the middle and harry their inner circle, and Mitch, hang back behind cover and pick off anybody who breaks out of the fight." I don't start the timer until the first roll that would be modified by that plan starts.

5) Another note about these classes in combat: The designers were big on multiclassing, and you should be, too. The classes were designed, I believe, to work best when multiclassing. Sure, you can maximize your Savant or Fast-Talk ability by taking levels solely in Smart or Charismatic -- that's your choice -- but don't complain about it when a Strong/Charismatic mix is able to have more fun in combat. They paid for it. The Strong/Charismatic mix is good for a hard hitting sergeant who can also inspire his troops or work the system to get his men special treatment. A Tough/Charismatic works well for this, too -- less damage output, but he gets the reputation as the iron-jawed sergeant who can survive anything, and who gets his troops through the worst situations by yelling at them until they're more scared of him than of the enemy.

6) I don't believe that Fast-Talk applies to combat bluffs, since a feint in combat isn't an attempt to lie, dissemble, or bend the truth through words. I could be way wrong, though.

7) In comparing the Charismatic Hero to the Smart Hero, remember that the Smart hero not only has more skill points, but more class skills to choose from. Where most d20 Modern folks have to either accept that their character is focused in a limited area, or spread out with lots of skills that don't have a ton of ranks, the Smart Hero has the ability to excel in a ton of skills. With Savant, as you mentioned, and with skill synergies, you've got the class capability to do some crazy stuff. Of course, as I mentioned before, the class is limited to doing great intelligent stuff on its own. It's probably more fun to play if you combine it with a physical class, like Fast. A Fast/Smart hero with the Criminal, Adventurer, or Athletic occupation can be amazingly fun to play, and useful as well.

8) To reiterate something about the importance of skills: This is something I've come up with myself, so no clue as to whether this is what the designers intended, but I believe that a good baseline for "skill DC that a hero should have to make for an average, not-critical-and-non-retryable check" is 14+level. A GM should be giving 1st-level PCs lots of DC15 skill checks -- not necessarily checks that are "succeed or you blow the mission", but checks that provide good ways to accomplish their objectives. A character with max'd ranks and a +0 ability modifier makes a DC14+level check 50% of the time. A character with max'd ranks, a +2 ability modifier, and some feat or talent that adds a +2 bonus succeeds 70% of the time.

This is the design that I use for most of my adventures. Sure, some checks are easier and some checks are harder, because robbing a high-security bank vault shouldn't scale in difficulty -- it should always be hard. But my players know that if they want to be really good for their level at something, they need to have max'd ranks and some other bonuses. For these situations, the skill bonuses provided by smart and charismatic characters is enormous. It lets them get obscene skill checks, and it also lets them get just plain GOOD skill checks while also taking some other skills. This is huge.

It mostly comes back to (1), though. If you throw wave after wave of gun-toting nontalkative bad guys at your PCs, they're gonna throw Strong/Tough/Fast PCs back at you. Making a variety of different skills integral to the success of the party is what'll get you a variety of mental PCs -- and coming up with fun ways to use their skills is what makes them as enjoyable as the combat machines.

For example, take a Smart/Charismatic Hero with Plan, Fast-Talk, and Dazzle. Tell him that as he prepares to go into a complex negotiation, he's going to have to make a number of checks, during a number of "rounds" of negotiation. His initial Strategy, conceived with Plan, will work during the opening rounds of negotiation -- but in this non-combat scenario, each round lasts several hours. He can choose to Bluff, working with a specific gambit, and if he succeeds in his fast-talk, he can gain a sizeable advantage (say, immediately earning one negotiation point, where the first person to get 5 negotiation points gets the vital business deal or wins the lawsuit). If his bluff fails, though, he automatically loses a point, and takes a penalty on further rolls as his credibility takes a hit. Or he can choose to Dazzle his opponent with high-falutin' banter, trying to rattle the competition and get them to make mistakes. Set it up so that each "round of negotiation" allows one normal standard or full-round action, and that a successful Diplomacy check, DC20, lets you earn one Negotiation Point or take one Negotiation Point away from your competition. A Knowledge check in the appropriate area might also earn a Negotiation point, and a Bluff or Intimidate, which are risky and have consequences for failure, could earn multiple points on a success.

Okay, so I'm mostly making that up as I go along, but if my PCs ever find themelves in a high-stakes business venture -- or need to negotiate on behalf of a small town of hapless citizens who want to broker a peaceful deal with the goblins in the sewers -- this kind of stuff makes the mental PCs much more interesting.