MH's skirmish combat rules VS core PHB's combat rules

[Li Shenron]

If rules forum is not the most appropriate place, please move this thread away

WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT:
- how you like miniature's skirmish combat rules compared to core PHB combat rules

WHAT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT:
- how you like miniatures or how you like the new D&D line of miniatures
- how you like the Miniatures Handbook
- how you like playing a combat-only game instead of a full RPG

Let's think we are about to play combat only, either as part of a full roleplay game or otherwise as a completely stand-alone game, eventually (but not necessarily) using the MH's rules on how to create the two sides of the battle. We actually don't need to be using miniatures at all.

It happened to me a couple of times that I just wanted to "exercise" with friends on combat rules*, so we quickly created two bands of PCs and/or monsters, put them against each other on a map and played a fight to death with the normal PHB combat rules (3.0 at the time, but it's the same). It worked very well.
* to be honest, it happened because too few players showed up to play a real campaign session

So, if you want to run a combat, do you think MH rules are actually any better than PHB rules? Are they both as good and do you wish to play some of both? Are PHB rules still the best? Or do you prefer MH rules so much that you even want to use them in a full RP campaign?

The easiest way to answer is: I will use PHB rules when I play D&D and MH rules when I play miniatures. Actually, we do so mostly because we are told to do so, if they were switched from the start we would probably play them the other way around.

You can answer now without reading my further opinions...

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What it seems to me is that more or less the skirmish ruleset tries to simplify the game in the following ways:
1) reduce the options in character creation
2) reduce the options in combat manoeuvres
3) reduce the number of dice rolled
these are supposed to speed up learning how to play, setting up a game and playing itself.

First of all, it doesn't seem to me that the rules are actually easier at all. Some things got simplified but there are new rules which bring new stuff to learn as well.

1) Reducing the options in character creation helps the new players, but we all know that what keeps WotC working on D&D is the sheer amount of crunchy-bits-based books we buy all the time to actually INCREASE our options. However, according to what this thread is about, we can even imagine we will play with whatever PC or creature we wish (and not just the existing miniatures).

2) This is the whole point of why I still consider PHB combat rules superior. The skirmish rules offer IMHO a much less strategic flexibility. Biggest example is the actions you can do only at the closets enemy.

3) It speeds up game and reduces random factor. The latter could either be seen as a positive or negative thing.

 

[Li Shenron]

Here's a brief list of the most relevant differences in the skirmish rules compared to the PHB rules...



Initiative: rolled by the whole team every round, then every player "activates" in turn 2 creatures at a time (by choice) until all creatures have acted, and then it's next round

Weapons: you must use the only attacks provided, but you may have both a melee and a ranged attack provided, in which case you can switch freely between them

Damage: fixed in multiples of 5 (as well as the HP); a creature immediately dies at 0 HP

Critical hits: no confirmation roll; always 20/x2

AoOs: no limit to how many per round

Charge: you can only charge the closest enemy; you can't charge if you start in a threatened square

Ranged attacks: you can only attack the closest enemy; you can't attack if you are in a threatened square; you can't do a ranged attack if you don't have a ranged attack score (e.g. you can't throw a melee weapon, save specific cases); no range penalties or otherwise a simple 9ft max range

Spells: you can only cast a spell at the closest enemy; you can't cast if you are in a threatened square (except touch spells, which don't provoke AoO); more or less every spell has been simplified; no bonus types (different spells stack, same spell doesn't)

Saving throws: only one type exist, bonus based on creature's level only; every spell which deals damage gives a save-half



Command rules: totally new (mostly they are restrictions when a creature is beyond command)

Moral rules: totally new (basically a TS at 50% HP, or you must escape via the shortest route)

 

[Li Shenron]

(bump) nobody cares? am I talking with myself alone the two of us individually as a whole?

 

[Shadow145]

You're not alone! I was hanging out with a few of my players, and we were bored, so I decided to break out the mini's and try out the system. I had been buying mini's for awhile to use in our campaign and had quite a few, but had never tried to play the actual skirmish game.

So I had three players, they each picked a group (CG, LG, and CE), and I refereed. We tried to go by the book (Just Skirmish rules, no MH book stuff). Note they (nor I) had any wargaming experience.

Dislikes:
1) There were not enough starting tiles for more than two players.
2) Those unfamiliar with routing rules didn't like them.
3) The "only charge or range attack the closest enemy rule" definitely annoyed the players
4) The players didn't like the fact that the tiles didn't "fit together" and were not comfortable using them.
5) There didn't seem to be enough choice in commanders (Although that could just be my luck in getting minis)

Likes:
1) The variable initiative worked out well.
2) The commander powers worked well
3) The speed of play and simplified rules
4) The similarity to standard D&D

Okay that said, we won't adopt the skirmish rules to campaign play. In the campaign we like more complicated manuevers, spells, etc. But the mini's game was kind of fun, and I would definitely play it on occaison for something different, or just to get away from the campaign for a week or two.

There are a few things I am going to change the next time we play. I'll still use the terrain cards, but put them on my battlemat and link them up with corridors or something. I think my players will like that better. I might also use larger teams, just to make things more interesting. I'm keeping the routing rules, I like them and I think the players just aren't used to thinking that way.

Oh, and the results of the combat: Out of three 100 pt teams, only the Dwarven Defender was left standing at the end.