Microlite20 : the smallest thing in gaming

True. I'm sure this is a campaign setting we're going to revisit again (pardon the tautology). As the New Gods are basically finding and deciding their Holy portfolio as they go along, Tordeluous Miskahen could well end up being the God of Falling Masonry. Hey, stranger things have happened.

I was thinking of Rob McKeena (the Rain God from Douglas Adams' "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" where the rain fell on him because he was their God) while coming up with the idea for the New Gods, with a little bit of Neil Gaiman throw in for good measure too. Imagine a New God (in other words, a Magi using OEMS) who ended up with the portfolio for Springtime flowers because he's cast a lot of nature-related magic. Everywhere he walked, flowers sprouted beneath his feet. Lovely to look at, but darned annoying if you're being tracked by an assassin.

Hmmmmm. I guess Tordeluous had better steer clear of large walls in future........
 

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Limits of the Open Magic System

greywulf said:
I was thinking of Rob McKeena (the Rain God from Douglas Adams' "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" where the rain fell on him because he was their God)

That's an awesome explanation for the kind of karma system I had in mind; and it perfectly fits your scenario. Maybe a general sentence of some sort (with what you said as an example) could be added to the wiki page to help players and game master get a feel for it?
 

Ry, I'm sure they could :)

Kensanata, I'm going to do a full write up of the campaign setting soon (lest I forget too) so I'll make sure there's examples in there and a link to it from the OEMS page.
 

Skills, Balance

Last session was the first time we really used a single skill other than subterfuge. My greedy rogue was questioning a client of an evil temple about the priests and since I judged the client to be unwilling, I had the rogue roll opposed communication skill checks to keep him talking. It worked, and my player was happy. Another player commented that it was interesting to see how evil characters talked to each other:
– What were you doing in there?
– None of your business!
– Let's hear it!
– Go away!
– Not until you tell me, you sneak!
– I bought what everybody bought in there, you cur! And you know it just as well as I do!
– Well, what was it!?
– A curse, you bastard!
– A curson upon who?
– My neighbour, if you need to know.

The others chime in: Let him go!

– How many people inside the temple?
– Let me go you bastard!
– How many!?
– Three, and now piss off!!

It was fun, but I'm still wondering. Do we really need four skills or are the other two only there for aesthetic reasons? We might as well just use level/HD for skill rolls and give rogues a +3 (+4?) when it involves subterfuge.

Or, to put it differently: Where have you used physical, communication, and knowledge skills?
 

High Level Rogues and Fighters

My players started arguing against fighter power at the beginning of the last session, as I wrote previously. The discussion continues with them being unhappy about being unable to add a DEX bonus to their bow damage rolls. (There's no bonus to bow damage rolls in D&D either, so I remained firm.) Anyway, the discussion then returned to balance issues once again, and we talked about imaginary level 20 fighters and rogues. To calm them, I said that a fighter would use +5 to hit and damage with his bow, where as a sneaking rogue would do +0 to hit and +24 to damage with his bow… Quite an assassin!

It seems to me that rogues will be very powerful at upper levels. Is nobody afraid of fighters being too weak in the later part of the game? Did anybody do any high-level playtesting?
 

I think that goes right along with my post above about why anyone would even want to play a fighter type. Maybe some sort of balancing (although larger file size) would be to have a BAB progression for each class.

Phys - Climb, Jump, Swim
Communication - Gather info, basic interrogation

I think subterfuge might be too broad in your game. Or maybe certain circumstances change the skill. You want to beat a confession out of him - that's Phys. You want to question him - communication. You want to bluff him into thinking you're cool and he'll open up his secret plan - subterfuge.
 

rycanada said:
I am going to start another thread about this, but here's my wicked-cool setting idea that I'd love to see an m20-oid handle. Think of an intrigue-filled wild west set a thousand years after victorian steampunk (not severe magic chaos like eberron's last war).

I'm a firm believer that PC classes tell the story best:

I can do these guys as Quick20 with Advanced Characters turned on:

Gunslinger
(Like a Ranger, no animal companions, must go ranged combat). Part of a brotherhood that has tremendous respect but very little political power. Code binds the gunslingers (i.e., must accept duels) but it's not alignment-based, so gunslingers can be on opposing sides of all sorts of conflicts. Code includes being impartial and sticking to the terms of a bargain. Non-gunslingers with guns are hunted down by the gunslingers, as are major violators of the code. Gunslingers must aid each other when someone breaks the terms of a gunslinger's contract. No weapons may be drawn in the presence of a gunsmith (gunsmiths are the non-combatant judges / craftsmen / trainers of the order).

Take double Ranged Combat picks at each level (or Ranged Combat/Athletics) and take level advancement bonuses in particular firearms types. These characters' codes are represented by taking on a Way.

Shaman
Setting's spirits are all incorporeal and unseen, but run the gamut from fickle tricksters to ancestor ghosts to nature spirits. There are also demons in the world, but they're your enemies.

Level picks are Magic/Magic or Magic/Expertise. Uses Summon/Animate spells.

Advocate
(Ninja-like abilities, esp. momentary invisibility and lethal strikes) Played as trained members of Houses, which are like crime families in a world with no police to get in the way. Imagine if rather than the Cavalry showing up, all you could hope for in the wild west was the arrival of the currently dominant local crime family. They are the political powers of the setting. These Houses span the setting - so if you make enemies of a House in one place, you've got enemies in lots of places. Houses know better than to try to acquire firearms, and they know well enough to hire Gunslingers when necessary. Advocates' secret fighitng style, including their ability to move undetected and make deadly strikes is passed from one generation to the next in a kind of assassin's apprenticeship. Advocates reach the highest levels of power within their Houses, although Advocates don't reveal that they are anything more than other gentlemen belonging to their Houses unless they have to.

Athletics/Martial Arts picks, with a few alternate picks for Magic.

Warlock
(somewhere between the concepts of warlock and binder in D&D) You made the deal, maybe under duress, or maybe for good reasons. Now you get the benefits. There are many demons in the world, and they can be used... but they can use you too. What's important, though, is that you stay alive, because you're not looking forward to what's waiting for you on the other side.

Magic/Magic or Magic/Socialize. Knows Summon/Animate as well.

Tetsujin (metal men)
Fighters are tetsujin, and tetsujin are fighters. Played largely as-is (using stats for Warforged or Ironborn or whatever). They are found in some ancient ruins, and about a hundred years ago someone figured out how to wake them up. They don't know who they are, they don't know how they were made. Often this means they can be used by others, and they're sought after by the Houses.

Martial Arts/Ranged applied to a fantastic peoples template with the following traits:

+1 Might, -1 Will
Unnatural Anatomy (ignores all wound effects except for death)
+2 to Fort damage saves

Otherwise, you'd want to use the expanded initiative/contests of will rules from Asiatic Adventures (for gunfights) and the firearms rules from Modern Adventures, along with maybe bannermen/mook rules, but not the extraordinary movement rules.

Incidentally, I'd love to get a Quick20 setting together sometime -- I'd even pay money for it . . .
 

Hya Greywulf. Fantastic work you have done here with M20! It looks to be pretty much what I was looking for when I dropped out of my weekly 3.5 session. I was simply tired of fighting with rules (and the rules-lawyers that came with them) instead of fighting in-game challenges.

I like your core rules very much but since you seem to be open to suggestions and questions, here are some of mine:

~~~~~~~~~~

1) Redundant base Stats: You have the opportunity here to do away with a pet peeve lots of people have with D&D. Your system would be perfection if it did away with the needless double stats for each ability score. Why keep track of DEX 18 (+4), when all you really want is that +4 on your sheet? I think the base scores should be dropped once they are generated. All bonuses to the abilities in the rules should then be divided in half. Dwarves get a +1 to STR for instance. Simple and clean. (Note: keep the 4d6 method for generation though for the strong bell curve it creates)

2) MIND stat: This stat should continue to be called INT I think. If not for maintaining the original D&D flavor alone, then because the 4 letter "MIND" irks me next to "STR" and "DEX". ;)

3) Missing CHA score: I thought about it and thought about it, and I think there really is this big hole without a Charisma score. It really is a huge stat in most campaigns (esp. heroic fantasy games) and their would be a void without it. CHA would also serve to round out all the classes, each having their own prime stat. Skills would also be rounded out, each having it's own prime stat as well. Character classes can then be viewed as training in each of the areas of natural talent that a person can be born with. Those who match their natural talents with their chosen professional will do best. An intelligent mage or a dexterous rogue for instance. Clerics are always trying to convince people to join their religion anyway, what better cleric would their be then than a charismatic one? So having the full four stats (Str, Dex, Int, Cha) would make the four core classes, and the skill system, make more sense I think and seem more universal.

4) No negative bonuses: To make things even more simple, why not lose negative stats bonuses? The negative bonuses are based on a arbitrary human average anyway. Who says humans are always the average? How about having starting stats range from 1 to 10 (with racial bonuses), by not subtract that initial 10? To keep things balanced all DC's can then be bumped up by +5. The players would then only have to add the revelent stats straight from their PC sheets to each roll. No chance of plus this, minus that.

5) Magic Saves: I am not sure if it feels right that all magic saves are MIND +level. I think one of the skills should come into play based on the spell affect itself. The GM can decide which skill is most relevent if its not written in the spell description. In this respect dodging a fireball is not all that different than dodging a fallen rock for instance. Each spell will then be more unique, and attack spell selection can be chosen based on it's intended target's perceived weaknesses.

6) Class based HP dice: This is regarding the HP level bonus is +1d6 rule. What was the reasoning for not making the dice type based on class? Surely its not that complicated an addition to the rules. I have seen enough people mention that fighters are somewhat nuked with the M20 rules. Giving them a d10 again might make lots of fighters happy. And another "subpar" class, the rogue, can then get a D8 for instance. I have always viewed fighters as the brute force warriors and rogues as swashbuckling finese types anyway. Bumpin up a rogue's HD makes will make them more viable in combat. So: Fighter=d10, Rogue=d8, Cleric=d6, Mage=d6. The later two being spell casters mostly anyway.

7) Size based HP dice: This one is just a thought. How about the bonus dice type being based on the creatures size? 1d4 for small, 1d6 for med, 1d8 for large, etc. Since most PC's are medium, the 1d6 already fits. Halfings might complain however. :-)

8) Level advancement: How does the EL rules as they stand take into consideration the party's size? 8 PCs taking on 8 NPCs should get less experience than 2 PCs in the same situation I think. Does the EL the GM assigns to each encounter already take party size into account then?

Sorry if any of this has been talked to death already in this rather lengthy thread. I have not read all of it yet. Thanks again for the cool system and keep up the great work.
 
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Larcen said:
1) Redundant base Stats
2) MIND stat should be INT
3) Missing CHA score
4) No negative bonuses
5) Magic Saves
6) Class based HP dice
7) Size based HP dice
8) Level advancement

1 - Seconded (although I understand that the reason is 1E compatibility)
2 - Seconded
3 - I'd recommend WIL for that stat, rather than CHA, especially since it's such a cleric thing to be able to use their force of will to turn undead or call on the gods. It's also a great social stat (social confrontations being a test of wills, commanding troops or intimidating people is also will, and fooling them is more INT+communicate vs. INT+communicate). The other thing you get is now you have each of the big deal saves with a clear connection to it: STR for Fort, DEX for Reflex, and WIL for Will. Anyone who says "where's INT's save?" can add one (I use it, for "trickery" spells rather than mind control). But when it comes to social stuff, I really think there's better ways to handle charisma.
4 - Disagree - too big of a jump from what's out there.
5 - Agree, see what I say about STR, DEX, INT, and WIL saves (not "saves", but "Level+Stat") I think it's generally a handy mechanic (Stat+Level vs. Target Number)
6 - Disagree - although I'd like it if it were 1d6+STR, then the burly characters get more hp regardless of their class.
7 - Agree somewhat, I'd rather see a size-based modifier (like -1 small, +1 large) and keep to the 1d6 where possible. PCs could use their STR modifier instead.
8 - No opinion. My PCs level when I damn well say they level.
 

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