What follows are my random thoughts on some points touched upon in recent posts to this thread. So bear with me please as the following is in no particular order. Also even if it appears that I start out sounding negative towards M20, I am not. I just want to point out what I feel are still weaknesses in an otherwise great attempt at simplifying D20. So here again is another list. (I like lists.
)
Cookie cutter characters: To begin with I want to say that sure it’s easy to come up with a level 20 character in M20 in under 20 seconds. But let’s be honest, that’s because they are all very much the same. In a sense M20 is so simple all you really need on your character sheet is something like, “Fighter 16, All average stats with above average STR.”, and your done. The rest is just math that hasn't been done yet. That’s both good and bad. Mainly bad over the long haul as players are going to want better customization at some point.
Clarification on no negative bonuses: A small point here. No negative bonuses does not mean subpar stats (and the characters we all love) go away. It just means they are represented differently. You can still have a low INT fighter, only now the average bonus will be 5 so his bonus of 2 in intelligence IS low. So yes, even fantasy characters need not be perfect.
High level fights are too short: Fights between high level characters ending in a single round are not fun. As it has been mentioned this means these fights all come down to the initiative roll and I agree. Epic fighters need epic fights. Not: “Surprise! Your 20th level character is dead.” Your latest suggestion that Init be dropped in favor of attack bonus order is good, but I am not sure a rules light game should ever have fighters attacking 3, 4, 5 or 6 times in a single round. That’s a lot of redundant dice rolling. If what you really want are high level fighters doing massive damage, then give them a single massive damage bonus, not 6 rolls to make. Better yet, don’t give them a massive damage bonus and instead let them win by a battle of attrition. Long drawn out battles at high level are not only expected but they allow time for things to develop, tactics to be reevaluated, and mutual respect to build. That’s epic.
Extra stats are OK: I don’t mind having an extra stat like CHA. I think streamlining character generation and whats recorded on your PC sheet is good but not whats important in a “lite” game. Character generation is only done once per character. What’s more important to simplify I feel are the mechanics that come after character generation, the rules used during play. M20 is appealing to me not because it dropped 3 stats, but because it dropped AoO, all the different action types, feats, large lists of skills, highly detailed spell descriptions, etc. That sort of stuff is what bogs the game down and require frequent lookups, not having an extra stat or two recorded on your sheet. Your CHA value, for instance, will hardly ever change during course of play. Besides, as DM I would rather have the stat and not need it than need it and not have it and then have to slow down the game while I come up with an ad-hoc alternative for it. Also if you are willing to hand wave CHA away and suggest that that is what roleplaying is for, then why stop there…you might as well hand wave the Communication skill away too and use roleplaying for it as well.
But enough about CHA ,since you already stated it’s a good optional rule in M20. Also enough of the negatives for now. Here is something I really liked in a recent post and want to see more of:
Skill use examples rock:
greywulf said:
Phys+STR - Bash down a door, swim a stream, lift a corpse
Phys+DEX - Climb a rope, dodge a flame trap, jump away from a Goblin's car (don't ask)
Phys+MIND - To judo throw a foe
Sub+STR - escape from ropes,
Sub+DEX - Hide, Move silently, disable a trap, palm a coin
Sub+MIND - Listen, search, spot, disguise
Comm+STR - Intimidate the Goblins, outstare an Ogre
Comm+DEX - juggling act, hand signals, ride a horse, forge documents
Comm+MIND - Influence a crowd or individual, calm an animal, some Perform skills
Know+STR - find a foe's weak point, blacksmithing
Know+DEX - most Craft skills, many Perform skills
Know+MIND - research, streetwise knowledge, gather info, recall facts
This is an excellent list and I think you should expand upon it if you have the time since its so useful. But obviously don’t include it in the core rules. Instead keep it the way it was intended, helpful suggestions but not more rules to memorize.
Proposed classless system: Let me finish off with a quick writeup of some more suggestions of my own for M20. Basically it’s a quick system I just put together which I think cover most of my perceived weaker points in M20, such as non-unique characters. Sorry if it comes across as another “95% system”. But feel free to pick and choose anything you may like. My intention was to try and create a classless system where the feel for the familiar classes can still be created. Of course, I also incorporated all the things I like, e.g. CHA and INT. You will note I gave in to negative bonuses, for now.
~~~~~~~~~
CLASSLESS M20
Stats per M20, but using INT instead of MIND, and adding CHA.
Drop the base stats after they are generated, and record the bonuses (or penalties) only.
Use the Phys skill (plus Str or Dex) for attacks but not for damage.
BASIC BONUSES
(All PCs get these starting with 1st level)
• Basic equipment appropriate to profession. Nothing should give bonuses except for armor below.
• STR+ D6/level for HPs
• +1 to any ability at levels 4, 8, 12, etc.
• +1 to two diff skills every level OR…
• +2 one-time bonus to any subskill.
Sample subskills are: locksmith, forester, trapmaster, merchant, swordsman, bowman, and other DM created or approved. This stacks with the relevant skill bonus. For example Sub + 2 for locksmith + DEX to pick a lock. A subskill can never stack with another.
ARMOR USAGE
(At 1st level, pick one from this list. PC is assumed to have basic armor of the type chosen.)
• Can use arcane items (not scrolls), and wear no armor.
• Can sneak attack (+Sub to damage), and wear light or less armor.
• Can use two weapons simultaneously at a reduced penalty, and wear medium or less armor.
• Can use divine items (not scrolls), and wear medium or less armor and shields.
• Can use all armors and shields. PC can start with up to platemail.
BACKGROUND BONUS
(At 1st level, pick one from this list)
• +2 to any skill
• Rage or Chi. (+4 to STR for duration of DM approved situations)
• Can shape change to any one non-magical animal type (dogs, cats, fishes, birds, etc) while HPs are over half.
• Special inheritance. A minor magic item OR extravagant starting equipment. DM must approve player's choices or select items himself.
• Any other DM created or approved bonus based on the character’s background and comparitable to the above
LEVELING BONUS
(At 1st level, pick one from this list. Cannot change selection after that, unless DM approves a major character change.)
• D10 HD instead of D6 per level.
• Select 2 arcane spells per level. Castable while wearing no armor. Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
• Select 2 divine spells per level. Castable with medium armor or less. Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
• Select 1 arcane OR 1 divine spell per level. Castable while wearing no armor. Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
• +1 to three different skills per level, instead of two. May be applied as one-time +2 bonus to a subskill and +1 to skill outside that subskill
• +1 damage per 2 levels with a chosen weapon type. (Note that there are no multi attacks in this system.)
• Any other DM created or approved bonus based on the character’s profession and comparitable to the above
SPELLCASTING: Spellcasting works like in M20, but the spells known are limited to those chosen at each level, per above. Treat this like the selection of spells Sorcerers have. As long as the spell selected is a castable level, there is no restriction on the spells chosen other than character concept. Just remember low level spells cost less to cast so it makes sense to maintain a good selection of those. Character starts with 4 free zero level spells and can take 4 more instead of a higher level spell. The idea is that having the entire list of spells available to a spellcaster makes it HARDER to play a spellcaster, not easier, as we are trying to do with a rules-lite system. Just jot down the few spells you know on your sheet, and go. Same goes for DMing NPCs. I dont want to have to run through all the spells in game in my head to decide which spell the NPC will cast.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see with these short simple rules the four core classes can be easily created as well as druid, ranger, monk, barbarian, and other interesting character types. For example, a fighter who was trained by the church to use cleric devices but not spells. A clergy bodyguard or a variation on Paladins? Or the extra damage ability for monkish types (weaponless or otherwise) who choose doing extra damage instead of better HD. Personally I would love to see the raging monk this system allows.
For normal fighters, the D&D game went through many successful editions before they got level based damage bonuses. They will do just fine with only magic and STR again in a rules lite system. Let them have their epic battles. Finally remember its ok to have a somewhat detailed character generation system...if the rest of the system is still light. Hopefully something like this strikes a good balance between simple characters and unique characters.
That’s it for now. As always, keep up the great work…..
-Larcen
