Midkemia d20?

ergeheilalt

First Post
Yes, that was the Hall of the Worlds. The name of the tavern escapes me at the moment, but I rather enjoyed the idea. As for it being a D&D rip off, that is to be expected, seeing as the group started out with D&D before they began creating their own system.

Erge
 

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rounser

First Post
Other tip-offs of D&D's influence, which when put together pretty much make Midkemia a homebrew D&D world:

Few fantasy worlds other than Midkemia bother to have Tolkien derivative kingdoms of elves and dwarves (or elves and dwarves at all, for that matter). Such derivation is arguably a D&Dism.

Dark elves, aka Moredhel (if memory serves). Okay, they're on the surface, and don't have dark skin (again, from memory) but they're still dark elves.

Theives guilds and assassins guilds. Again, a D&Dism, originally borrowed by the designers from Fritz Leiber (and perhaps other places) I think...

I think I remember someone being a "ranger". Again, from Tolkien via D&D to Midkemia, perhaps.

Priests with a magic distinct from that of the wizards. As pointed out earlier, this is a arguably a glaring D&Dism. The Conan books, for example, have magic-using priests, but there's no distinction made between these and other sorcerors and necromancers (except that they like sacrificing maidens to their gods more, perhaps).
 
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Crothian

First Post
rounser said:
Other tip-offs of D&D's influence, which when put together pretty much make Midkemia a homebrew D&D world:

I think most of those things are common enough, that specifically attributing them to D&D seems like a longshot. Also, does it really matter where ideas come from?
 

rounser

First Post
I think most of those things are common enough, that specifically attributing them to D&D seems like a longshot.
Perhaps taken seperately, but put them all together and the nods to D&D are unmissable.

Who uses elves and dwarves? Eddings? Nope. Jordan? Nope. Donaldson? Nope. Gemmell? Nope. Same could be said for some of those other things. You get what I'm getting at?
Also, does it really matter where ideas come from?
Is there any harm in pointing out the world's obvious roots? I think it's great that what was perhaps originally a homebrew D&D world has hit mainstream fantasy fiction. I hate to imagine how many wannabe authors base their writing around even more obvious D&D homebrews - the editors at the fantasy publishing companies must be thoroughly sick of D&Disms like the ones I've pointed out by now, and probably see them coming a mile off.

I suspect that D&D has had a decent influence on the sculpting of modern fantasy, insofar as it at least scavenged a bunch of pulp fantasy milieu concepts, clumped them into a semi-cohesive whole, put them in one easily learnable place, and kept them in the limelight for some time. CRPGs such as Everquest are arguably directly traceable back to D&D - although I doubt anyone here would argue that point.

At a longer stretch, I think the "contemporary fantasy" genre constructs, including such successful properties as Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Harry Potter, probably owe about as much to D&D as they do to Tolkien, if Tolkien and D&D can be considered two of the main drivers behind modern swords and sorcery style fantasy (Buffy directly as Whedon is/was obviously a roleplayer, and Potter perhaps second or third-hand through the prominence of other fantasy media which might have been enlivened partially due to D&D).
 
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LOL. The reason Midkemia seems so much like a D&D world is it IS a D&D World!

See the "Who We Are" page at Midkemia.com for the background.

Midkemia started as a homebrewed campaign world for OD&D (likely the 1974 version of the rules). As the group (which included Raymond Feist) developed theit world, they focused more on many of the RP and world-building aspects of the game than other groups, and eventually diverged from D&D, developing their own rules, and eventually their own game setting and publications (and computer games, etc, through Midkemia Press). Feist -- who eventually separated from the group to write full time -- turned much of what he'd been a part of into his extremely successful writing.

Midkemia may have changed game systems, but I'd say that given the common roots, it's still very close to D&D (and would probably translate well to d20).

Here's a the history from Midkemia.com:

Midkemia Press was started by a group of friends in 1977 in San Diego. Steve Abrams was an enthusiastic wargamer and was regularly attending the Triton Wargaming Club at the University of California at San Diego (where he was a graduate student). There he met Jon Everson and Conan Lamot (yes Conan is his real name). As well as being wargamers, Conan one day (in 1975) returned from a trip to Los Angeles and returned with this 'neat new game' - Dungeons and Dragons, the original 3 book, boxed set put out by a new company called Tactical Studies Review (TSR).

Conan had copied a number of relevant tables out of the books and produced a mini players guide which he had titled - The Tome of Midkemia. Being frustrated actors at heart, we took to this new game concept like ducks to water. But there was a fly in the sugar -- it became obvious that because of the outline nature of the original game rules, the direction the local games were taking was oriented heavily to bash and crash and building giant characters (that only could be threatened by fighting their own dopplegangers -- don't laugh, it really happened). This didn't appeal particularly to a group of us, so we split off from the main-stream D&D crowd and began writing our own rules set based on our knowledge of medieval history, fantasy literature, and our experiences recreating medieval fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

During a particularly extended mult-night, miniatures oriented scenario (i.e. The Battle of Here), we were introduced to a friend of a friend, named Raymond Feist, at that time a 'poor starving student' at UCSD like the rest of us. Having trudged down the path of building all these rules up into a playable game, Jon Everson and Steve Abrams decided that they might as well start a company and produce gaming products for the burgeoning Fantasy Role Playing (FRP) market. Thinking the name was really trick, they checked with Conan, who originally coined the name and got permission from him to use the name Midkemia for 'all future time'. Midkemia Press was born (formally still known as Abrams & Everson) and produced their first (and arguably their best) product , the book CITIES, in 1979. This book was usable with any FRP game system and provided tables for generating encounters when running games in city environments and a set of rules for running 'character catch-up' - sort of a solo adventure that your character had while waiting for the next game. Typed completely on a rented IBM selectric typewriter, with artwork done by friends Mary Coman, Richard Spahl, Ray Feist (yes Ray even thought he could draw...) and April Abrams (Apperson), the product was a real success for what at that time was still pretty much a cottage industry. It became obvious that April and Anita Everson were really part of the company and Ray was brought in as a partner.

The second product was Midkemia's first fully populated role-playing city, The City of Carse. Based on a revised map of medieval Carnarevon in Wales (it's amazing how many people told us "a 'real' city would never look like that!"). Here was the first look at the whimsical capabilities of Ray. Steve and April had blocked out the city in terms of who was where and left Ray typing over the weekend on our new, powerful, Apple II (not II+, not IIe - the original Apple II), SuperText word processor, and a case of beer. For a real peek into those early days, I recommend reading the sections on the 'Bazaar' in Carse.

This was followed over the next years by: The City of Jonril; Tulan of the Isles; Towns of the Outlands; The Black Tower; The Heart of the Sunken Lands, (for Chaosium) Thieves World, (an abortive city project for Simulations Publications Inc. [SPI] Dragonquest game) and (for Sorcerer's Apprentice magazine) The Village of Hoxely. During this time, Ray became a world famous author, writing novels of Midkemia's history and formally parted company with Midkemia Press to clarify the respective ownership rights regarding the game materials and novels. Midkemia products have been licensed and printed in German and have until recently been in print through Chaosium Inc. The CITIES product, in particular, has been most recently in print as Avalon Hill's RuneQuest Cities.

Today, Midkemia Press, is principally a license holder to Midkemia game products, which we share with Ray Feist. The future looks to be oriented toward computer and on-line gaming products. The first computer game set in Midkemia, was Betrayal at Krondor, by Dynamix, Inc. The second computer game had a difficult birthing, first being handled by 7th Level, then Pyrotechnics and finally back to Sierra (Dynamix). Return to Krondor, while not the ground-breaking game that Betrayl was has enjoyed moderate success and spawned several new books by Ray Feist.

Discussions continue off and on with various publishers regarding the publishing of the entire game system for the Tome of Midkemia, including the original modules and all new modules. At this time there is no date set. Additionally, Midkemia Press is working on play-by-email games based in the Midkemian universe. Look for more information on this web site as that project nears completion.

Steve Abrams
 

Crothian

First Post
rounser said:

Perhaps taken seperately, but put them all together and the nods to D&D are unmissable.

Who uses elves and dwarves? Eddings? Nope. Jordan? Nope. Donaldson? Nope. Gemmell? Nope. Same could be said for some of those other things. You get what I'm getting at?

That your compairing Midkemia to worlds that were designed 20 years after it's incarnation? But it is based on D&D just really old D&D.
 

rounser

First Post
That your compairing Midkemia to worlds that were designed 20 years after it's incarnation?
I think 20 years might be pushing it. A lot of fantasy fiction still being sold was written in the 80s or earlier, as far as I can see. Seems to have a long shelf life.
But it is based on D&D just really old D&D.
Oh I know that. I think it's long been passe for fantasy authors to allude to Tolkien stuff such as elves and dwarves as much as D&D does, so when one does, it stands out. Add to that semi-gamist concepts like reading from scrolls only to have the writing disappear, or the division of arcane and divine magic for convenience, and there's your gamist huckleberry which we can smile knowingly at, perhaps even seeing the irony of the simulation driving the simulated. :)

I get the feeling that you think I'm demeaning the work, or attacking it, by pointing this out. That's not the intention - S&S fantasy is absolutely overflowing with derivation, subtle and glaring. The genre seems to be various riffs on the same old cliches, or recombination with sci-fi, horror, crime or other genres, (or, as seems to be in vogue at the moment, plonking down S&S fantasy material in a contemporary setting) in an attempt to put a new spin on them. There's nothing wrong with this, IMO.
 
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ergeheilalt

First Post
I thought it was kinda cool that Midkemia was based on D&D. After having been recommended the books by my math teacher in eight grade (who enjoyed poking fun at D&D, though I was the only one who played in the class), the fact that they were rooted in a game I played was a very cool revelation.

Do I fault Feist as an author? No, it's bubble gum fantasy that always cleans the palate after a boring and depressing read (recovering from an entire year of AP English, I'm washing my literary palate with some good ol' fantasy books). What intrigued me about Midkemia was not that it was similar to Tolkien (which it obviously is) or that it had its roots in D&D (again, a true statement); it was what was different.

High and Low magic struck me dumb. Kulgan (a low magician) could do amazing magical things; but Hocatca (sp?) (a high magician) could do powerful things, but of a different caliber.

The Gods were dead. Only a few survived, and they weren't Greco-Roman clones, they had titles and domains that were not simple "Fighters" or "war". The Valhalru, a race of god-like beings, created Midkemia - however they were not gods. The rare-magic items and the complex politcal arrangement also gave rise to my imagination. The planet walking adventures, portals mlllenia lost, the unknown lands across the sea (Novidius - which was only partially explored and the hints that there was even more). All these aspects made the books wonderful.

Arguing the roots of a great series of novels is pointless. They just are there.

Back to my main point, any news on Midkemia d20? :D

Erge
edited for spelling
 
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jasamcarl

First Post
I was alluding to its DND roots because I thought that the assertion that it would not translate well to Dnd d20 was ridiculous. Its a derivative as anything i've seen. Not that I didn't have fun during middle-school. Good escapeism is always appreciated.
 


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