[Midnight] Campaign Idea

[mmadsen]

Right but... isn't the point of Midnight that you never CAN "actually beat the unbeatable bad guy at the end of the campaign"?

My point was that, no, I don't think that's the point of Midnight. The point of Midnight is to convince you that you can never actually beat the "unbeatable" bad guy at the end of the campaign, so that it's much more meaningful to make any progress at all.

 

[shilsen]

I frankly don't understand the recent trend for campaign settings being so "dark," "grim," and (by any degree of realism) utterly hopeless.

For me, playing D&D only has a point if there's some reasonable hope of making a difference for the better.

Sometimes it's better to cast a sonically substituted empowered fireball than to curse the darkness?

 

[Slife]

My point was that, no, I don't think that's the point of Midnight. The point of Midnight is to convince you that you can never actually beat the "unbeatable" bad guy at the end of the campaign, so that it's much more meaningful to make any progress at all.

But the main problem with that is the player's aren't the ones the books are for. The books are for the GMs.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not necessarily. The books provide the narrative source material for the DM to communicate the setting's elements and mood to the players. I think mmadsen's point about credible expectations is exactly correct. (In fact, I seem to end up mentioning it on every MN thread...)

While I appreciate the dark mood of CoC games and dark fantasy settings like Midnight, I don't really like the *futility* element of the latter: Not because it doesn't conform to historical precedent or certain literary archetypes, but because, IMHO, it's likely to burn out *players* pretty quickly. CoC usually makes for very exciting gaming: Even though one could argue that the greater metaplot signals the futility of mankind's achievements in the face of the Great Old Ones' eternal existence, the day-to-day reality of CoC is that of the bustling, modern world, and investigators get to either score seemingly lasting victories or get devoured messily, either of which are exciting options. Midnight, OTOH, seems a bit pointless not because the PCs can't beat Izrador, but because the very way it's set up to play "as written" defeats not only victory, but heroic achievement. One can too easily end up with the bitter stench of a DM's power trip gone wrong. Now, I happen to think that MN does a very nice job of setting up the PCs to fail *because, when they do win, the players will be genuinely elated and surprised.*

Incidentally, this is not to say that the PCs have to defeat Izrador. After all, countless TV shows and comic books have run on the theory of indefinite crisis. Does Batman ever clean up Gotham City completely? Do the Gilligan's Island people ever find a way home? The PCs could "end" a campaign having scored minor victories, but not ended the Shadow's domination. But that doesn't mean that the world has to be worse off than it was before the campaign started; otherwise, what's the point?

Incidentally, I envisioned the "Earendil option" as the natural resolution of an MN campaign the moment I cracked the book. What I ended up going with (or would have, except that the campaign terminated early when the PCs kicked it), was the following:

The PCs eventually, either by destroying the Izradis Zordrafin Corith or defeating the Night Kings (yes, they would need to be epic level by this point!), score a temporary victory over the Shadow; but it is only a matter of time before he'll return, and Aryth seems none the less doomed. So, the PCs use the time they've bought by their victory to breach the barriers around Aryth and travel to the realm of the other Gods. However, the Gods refuse to undo the Sundering; the barrier around Aryth acts as Izrador's prison, and the Gods are unwilling to unleash this evil upon the rest of the universe. They return the sorrowful PCs to their world. However, the PCs receive a clue as to how to deal with their problem: The Gods mention (perhaps intentionally) that the only way to destroy Izrador is to unmake Aryth. The PCs figure out that they can end the sorrow of Midnight... by destroying the world and making it anew. So they find a way to do this, perhaps involving alien magic or some artifact they find in the Realms Beyond.

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Of course, then Dawnforge ended up being written this way. Funny, hm?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Also, I don't think that an eventual victory necessarily robs the setting of dark, "gritty" tone. Midnight still starts out as a world dominated by evil; even if the PCs were to beat the crap out of Izrador (something that's clearly impossible unless you're playing using Deities and Demigods and 80th-level PCs), Aryth would be devastated for millenia to come. There are no champions of good left in the world (except perhaps the PCs), and the entire setting is pervaded with grief and despair.

 

[S'mon]

I like this idea a lot.

I like it a lot too; this is just the kind of Midnight campaign I'd like to play. It's a perfect campaign setting for such epic fantasy themes. I never liked the 'rotten potato scavenging' side of Midnight; the vast epic sweep of tragic history, OTOH...

 

[S'mon]

BTW the Midnight setting clearly does still have 'champions of good', notably the Witch Queen, and Izrador isn't all-powerful,else he wouldn't have been defeated previously, and he wouldn't need armies or Night Kings to impose his will! When we played it my PC had a goal to contact the overseas Sarcosan Empire, hopefully still existent, and persuade it to come rescue Aryth, USA in WW2 style.

 

[ruleslawyer]

BTW the Midnight setting clearly does still have 'champions of good', notably the Witch Queen, and Izrador isn't all-powerful,else he wouldn't have been defeated previously, and he wouldn't need armies or Night Kings to impose his will! When we played it my PC had a goal to contact the overseas Sarcosan Empire, hopefully still existent, and persuade it to come rescue Aryth, USA in WW2 style.

I should have restricted myself to "continent."

I would disagree, however, that the Witch Queen quite constitutes a "champion of good" in the classic sense. She's a ruler rather than a champion. The PCs might be her champions, but that's a separate possibility.

 

[Yair]

I would disagree, however, that the Witch Queen quite constitutes a "champion of good" in the classic sense. She's a ruler rather than a champion. The PCs might be her champions, but that's a separate possibility.

Hmm, she seems pretty champion to me. It's always "the queen's avatar this", "the queen's spy that", only the elven lands are really standing up to the Shadow (the dwarves are always seemed to be described in a more shattered state). Phw. It's like Elminister, only worse.

I'm going to join S'mon in hating the potato-scavenging aspect of Midnight, and liking its sweep of history.