Midnight with different rules?

ruleslawyer said:
SB: I'd be happy to share the paths with you, once I've... err, written them! [I'll be out of town on work, etc. for a while, so won't be able to put these together for a few weeks.] I have a question for you, actually: Have you thought through the paths on an individual level in terms of which are particularly broken and which aren't? I'd love to see such a breakdown, if you have one!

I haven't made an actual breakdown, no. We're pretty much staying away from the paths in the player supplement though, there are some bad ones in there (Painless especially, yup) - plus OTOH a wide selection of paths with a use limited to specific types of territory, which kinda limits a character's range if you wish to play them long-term.

The only path in the main book that looks broken to me is Giantblooded (especially if you use the 3.5 damage increase for size increase), but that one gives me the creeps style-wise, so I'm not allowing it anyway. I've seen DMs on the Against the Shadow boards complain that Giantblooded characters were breaking their game.

As S'mon has already suggested, most paths appear to be rather underpowered, so viable paths choices are kinda limited if your play style is focussed on challenges. It's different obviously if you play a game geared towards style and world simulation, not overcoming challenges - for that kind of game the paths are all more or less equally interesting and viable I'd say, I'm speaking merely from our play experience with our style!

Ironblooded and Quickened have worked well in play for melee characters, Dragonblooded is the obvious choice for channelers, the Shadow Walker might have made a fine scout (if he'd lived...).
(In the Dragonblooded path, the Improved Spellcasting ability is broken btw: that one lowers spellcasting cost by one point for an entire school each time it is taken. It's not a problem in my game because I've redesigned channelers to have access to fewer schools, and the spell point system works differently, but under the rules as written you grow yourself a nice long-term balance problem if you allow the channeler, Dragonblooded, unmodified .... worse if you let them take the first level of the "Druid" PrC as well, which my resident powergamer tried to get me to do... :) )

Some paths provide a nice basis for tailoring to your game style and character concept. For example, I'm currently reworking the Guardian path in discussion with one player (randomling). Neither of us liked spell-like abilities for a melee character, and randomling envisaged a highly self-disciplined PC, so Rage wouldn't fit. We've swopped out Det Evil for the Inconspicuous feat at first level and changed the Rage ability at higher levels to a "reverse rage" that increases AC and Will save and decreases the attack bonus. Forbiddance at 13th will be replaced by a Lay on Hands ability for a specific number of hp per day (not scaling with level).
 

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S'mon said:
Re the Midnight netbook - I had a look through it yesterday, I'd advise caution in using it if you wished to retain anything of a heroic feel; it really goes overboard on the grimness & hopelessness. In particular it seems to use DC 25 rather than regular D&D's DC 15 as the 'typical' DC - eg for Fortitude saves to recover from perfectly mundane diseases, or Survival rolls for finding food in the wilderness. This doesn't mesh well with either the regular 3e system (where DC 25 is "extremely difficult") or with any kind of an heroic paradigm IMO.

S'mon has said it all. :)
 

Thanks for the input, SB and S'mon! It seems that we think very much alike; I looked at Giantblooded and decided to throw it out right away; there's already another "big strong PC" path available, so why we need two I don't know. I looked at Dragonblooded and wiped my forehead with a "whew, lucky I'm not using the channeler to begin with!", and wasn't thrilled with the Guardian. I'm keeping detect evil, but giving the guardian defensive stance (as the dwarven defender ability) in place of rage and lay on hands in place of forbiddance.

Yeah, a Survival DC of 25 to find food is going to make my players question how there are any humans or fey left alive! Maybe they're unusual in that, but still...
 

S'mon said:
Re the Midnight netbook - I had a look through it yesterday, I'd advise caution in using it if you wished to retain anything of a heroic feel; it really goes overboard on the grimness & hopelessness. In particular it seems to use DC 25 rather than regular D&D's DC 15 as the 'typical' DC - eg for Fortitude saves to recover from perfectly mundane diseases, or Survival rolls for finding food in the wilderness. This doesn't mesh well with either the regular 3e system (where DC 25 is "extremely difficult") or with any kind of an heroic paradigm IMO.
As to the disease rules - some diseases are nearly impossible to treat but don't do much real damage whether you treat them or not. Others are easy to treat but often fatal if left untreated. Please keep that in mind. The killers are both difficult to treat and difficult to survive if untreated.

Anywho, the netbook is 1) designed by a group of people who had a goal in mind. Very talented people, by and large, but yes they had an agenda, and that agenda may not mesh well with your campaign objectives or flavor. 2) It's not either/or - it is intended to be a resource for a variety of options.

n other words, it isn't a cohesive whole, it's a compilation of different optional rules. I wouldn't use more than one or two in the entire book, though all are food for thought. Others have great fun using the whole thing. Not my style, but more power to them.
 

Wow, this is great. I'm getting geared up to try a Midnight campaign, if I can get my new group together, and this thread is giving me a lot to think about in terms of tweaking the setting to meet my own expectations. I find it hard sometimes to see what works and what messes things up until it is in play and too late. Thanks for the tips.
 

StalkingBlue said:
the Shadow Walker might have made a fine scout (if he'd lived...)

Hah, your shadow walker wildlander (?) died too? How'd yours die? Mine had his arms ripped off by a fiendish dire ape that Izrador had released into some woods...
 

Gort said:
Hah, your shadow walker wildlander (?) died too? How'd yours die? Mine had his arms ripped off by a fiendish dire ape that Izrador had released into some woods...

He wasn't technically my Shadow Walker Wildlander, he was a PC in the game I run. That scout died after about one hour of play in the very first session when he failed to bluff his way past some town guards and made the very bad mistake of letting them know who his friend in town was ... By then that particulary friend was wanted for having failed to deliver some drugs to an orc officer ... and couldn't be found because he was lying dead in the sewers. So the town guards arrested the scout PC to extract information from him - at which point the player and I agreed that it ended there, neither of us seeing much point in playing through a being-tortured-to-death scene. (By that time there was no other PC alive who could have tried to save him.) So, er, I can't tell you what precisely the scout died of because it happened off screen. But I can promise that it wasn't pleasant. :)
 

Thornir Alekeg said:
Wow, this is great. I'm getting geared up to try a Midnight campaign, if I can get my new group together, and this thread is giving me a lot to think about in terms of tweaking the setting to meet my own expectations. I find it hard sometimes to see what works and what messes things up until it is in play and too late. Thanks for the tips.

:) Cool. We have found that Midnight can be a really inspiring setting.
Speaking of rules tweaking, I wasn't too sure how a number of things were going to work in play so I told my players that I was running the game in playtest mode and might be changing a number of rules as we went along - they were ok with that, and boy, have I needed that license. There's nothing wrong with changing rules during play if you find something breaks the game, mature players will understand a change if you explain the problem it's causing; but if you expect to have to do a lot of fiddling it's better to let the players know beforehand or you'll unsettle them, which isn't good for player-DM trust.
 

ruleslawyer said:
Thanks for the input, SB and S'mon! It seems that we think very much alike; I looked at Giantblooded and decided to throw it out right away; there's already another "big strong PC" path available, so why we need two I don't know.

Heh. Great minds and all that ...

ruleslawyer said:
I looked at Dragonblooded and wiped my forehead with a "whew, lucky I'm not using the channeler to begin with!", and wasn't thrilled with the Guardian. I'm keeping detect evil, but giving the guardian defensive stance (as the dwarven defender ability) in place of rage and lay on hands in place of forbiddance.

Ah, interesting alternative. Defensive stance might not work so well for the greatsword-wielding, medium-armored PC in my group because she has to be able to retreat behind the shield fighters when badly cut up, but it certainly fits the theme of the path.

On a related note, weren't you going to tell us about your XP award system?...

ruleslawyer said:
Yeah, a Survival DC of 25 to find food is going to make my players question how there are any humans or fey left alive! Maybe they're unusual in that, but still...

Yeah, I've got unusual players like that. I thank my stars for them. :)
 


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