D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[GreyLord]

At this point, I don't expect that Hasbro will pursue rule changes more significant than 2025 ever again, same as their other evergreen games. Minor rule changes here and there, primarily new packaging.

There is no ROI on radical edition change.

I wouldn't be so sure on that one. I'd say they are probably developing 6e even as we speak, and there are some pretty major changes with it akin to the bigger changes that have followed all of WotC's different D&D editions.

 

[Parmandur]

I wouldn't be so sure on that one. I'd say they are probably developing 6e even as we speak, and there are some pretty major changes with it akin to the bigger changes that have followed all of WotC's different D&D editions.

Nah. They have too much invested in the Beyond platform, and Evergreen is a proven game industry formula.

 

[GreyLord]

Nah. They have too much invested in the Beyond platform, and Evergreen is a proven game industry formula.

They do have a lot invested in Beyond.

Enough that when sales start falling a good money maker is to force people to change (sort of like Windows does, or other things in that arena. The CEO of Hasbro is well familiar with that type of forced change and it's benefits).

Whether that will work with RPG folks on an electronic platform...I don't know. But Paizo seems to have been rather successful with it (edition change in a completely different direction), so I'm not sure why WotC wouldn't be.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The other group wants Maximum Effort, all the time. Much like you go into each boss encounter in World of Warcraft with full hp, full mana, and with all your cooldowns ready, they want the same for each encounter in the game. You probably have fewer resources immediately available, but you only need to worry about them for this one fight. There might be some healing surge-like mechanic that limits the number of encounters you can endure, but until you hit that limit you're golden. In this model, each encounter is threatening in and of itself and you need to use your resources to defeat it. But that's fine, you'll get them back.

And I do not think this is a viable or sensible way to do things in a tabletop RPG. Yes, a lot of computer games work like this. But do you know what happens in WoW when the party gets killed in a fight? They respawn at the nearest graveyard and get to try again. But this really cannot happen in an RPG. In WoW the full resource fights can be scaled to be challenging, as you can just try them many times until you succeed. In a RPG, this is not the case, so in full resource approach either leads to insanely deadly game, or to a game where the fights really do not matter as the PCs just win and any resource costs do not matter as there is no attrition.

 

[Parmandur]

They do have a lot invested in Beyond.

Enough that when sales start falling a good money maker is to force people to change (sort of like Windows does, or other things in that arena. The CEO of Hasbro is well familiar with that type of forced change and it's benefits).

Whether that will work with RPG folks on an electronic platform...I don't know. But Paizo seems to have been rather successful with it (edition change in a completely different direction), so I'm not sure why WotC wouldn't be.

Right now, my social media feeds are full of ads from WotC touting books from the Teens prominently as compatible with the new rulebooks.

Rule changes did not prove fruitful for them in the past, the 2024 rules sales success on the other hand stands out in contrast (we already know that as of the end of last year that the 2024 PHB had outsole the lifetime PHB sales for 3E, 3.6 or 4E...). Evergreen rules, sell people on the platform and mwrch for profit. Revolutionary rules changes are just...not good for their business.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think it's perfectly possible to design a game where both concerns can work

Of course you can design it, no one is saying otherwise. What you can’t do is make people like it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Regarding bounded accuracy:

Great concept. I have some nitpicks about the execution. Things are too bounded on the enemy side; the AC and saves of the enemies could scale more. AC 22 for ancient dragon is not enough. And yeah, this lack of defences leads to inflation of the HP. Meanwhile on the player side the bounds are far too easy to break. You can still stack all sort of things for wild results. And in general, I am not sure damage and HP need to scale so fast at all. Like sure, with bounded accuracy especially, they must scale, but not this much. If they scale less it just means that the power difference between high and low level things lessens, which to me seems fine.

 

[Staffan]

And I do not think this is a viable or sensible way to do things in a tabletop RPG. Yes, a lot of computer games work like this. But do you know what happens in WoW when the party gets killed in a fight? They respawn at the nearest graveyard and get to try again. But this really cannot happen in an RPG. In WoW the full resource fights can be scaled to be challenging, as you can just try them many times until you succeed. In a RPG, this is not the case, so in full resource approach either leads to insanely deadly game, or to a game where the fights really do not matter as the PCs just win and any resource costs do not matter as there is no attrition.

I don't know, it seems to be working fine in Draw Steel. The only attrition there is to your recoveries, while your offensive power actually increases over the course of the day (because every previous Victory gives you one extra starting resource to work with, which can often be the difference between opening with one of your moderately powerful signature abilities or one of your strong 3-resource abilities or, with a few victories available, even a 5-resource ability).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't know, it seems to be working fine in Draw Steel. The only attrition there is to your recoveries, while your offensive power actually increases over the course of the day (because every previous Victory gives you one extra starting resource to work with, which can often be the difference between opening with one of your moderately powerful signature abilities or one of your strong 3-resource abilities or, with a few victories available, even a 5-resource ability).

So what is a drawback in that game of a fight going badly, but not so badly that you actually lose? And how is power use limited outside of combat? Are they spells, can they be cast infinitely? What do the recoveries do? What do the victories do?

 

[payn]

Regarding bounded accuracy:

Great concept. I have some nitpicks about the execution. Things are too bounded on the enemy side; the AC and saves of the enemies could scale more. AC 22 for ancient dragon is not enough. And yeah, this lack of defences leads to inflation of the HP. Meanwhile on the player side the bounds are far too easy to break. You can still stack all sort of things for wild results. And in general, I am not sure damage and HP need to scale so fast at all. Like sure, with bounded accuracy especially, they must scale, but not this much. If they scale less it just means that the power difference between high and low level things lessens, which to me seems fine.

Yes, the idea is a good one, it just needs fine tuning.