D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

Even in BG3 the "good" routes are often better fleshed out and the rewards are pretty similar (getting Minthara as a companion would be counter example, but the general case it a bit uncommon).
There was a lot of wailing during the beta test and when BG3 first came out that being good was not sufficiently “rewarding”. I do think some people don’t understand the difference between good and mercenary.

Nevertheless, the statistics show that the majority of BG3 players chose good options, even when evil offered better cookies.
 

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I know you are a strong proponent of the idea that players can be trained into certain behaviours by their experiences and I wonder if this is reflected in this - at least in part. In many games, "being good" just gives better rewards - it was a bit of a trope in BG1/2 for example that turning down a monetary quest reward got you both reputation points and magic items worth more than the reward.

Even in BG3 the "good" routes are often better fleshed out and the rewards are pretty similar (getting Minthara as a companion would be counter example, but the general case it a bit uncommon).

I don't disagree with your overall thesis, but there might be a bit of a feedback loop here - "good" routes historically provide better rewards so players choose them more, Devs spend more time on content players are likely to see, players choose the routes with more/better content and so the cycle repeats.

The question is kind of - if the "good" routes required significant content/gameplay sacrifices, would people still choose them to the same extent?
Well, I mean, I cited the example in part because it effectively is a (mild) sacrifice, but it also functionally costs nothing, and yet also adds almost nothing either. Dante (the half-hellhound in question) only shows up very late.

If folks were inclined to experiment just because they felt like it, you'd think the rate would skew at least somewhat more in the other direction.

It's easier to be nice here, admittedly, but not "only 0.9% of players did the opposite" easy. By comparison, 27.8% had Dante join the crew. That's not even a 1:4 ratio, that's just shy of a 1:310 ratio.

But, more to your point, yes, I am a strong proponent of that perspective, that players get trained--and in this case, it's society responsible for most of the training, not the rewards from games, nor (IMO) much from GMs themselves. I don't necessarily buy that "good" endings get more attention though. Star Wars games tend to give plenty to both sides. Even with Shadowrun: Dragonfall, pretty much every reasonable ending except "f@$# this $#!+, I'm out" is there, including VERY bad endings, and Minthara is a knock against the notion that it's a reliable pattern, indicating at best only a loose pattern. (Consider, for example, Vampire Astarion and God Gale both get lots of rewards and content with no downside...other than making both much worse people.) Often, I do think being good pays off in the very long-term, but it really is long term, especially for BG3. (E.g. if you don't kill the tieflings, which IIRC requires saving the grove, you can get some nice magic items like a good robe for Warlocks...but it only comes dozens of hours later unless you're also speedrunning.)

Overall, what data I've seen indicates that it actually does take some pretty serious sacrifices to make good, or at least good-leaning, options be overwhelmed by evil ones. It can't just be mere opportunity cost either, because if it is, most folks will just view that in the "cost for doing business" kind of way--that it's wrong to merely seek the opportunity for benefit. You will, however, see some movement in the direction of trying to cheat the system--to reap the rewards of "bad" choices while actually still following the "good" path by the game's logic. Minthara's a good example there. It used to be an exploit to save her without siding with the goblins. Larian later patched in an official, if a bit convoluted, way to do it, causing her to join late, at Moonrise Towers.

By and large, that seems to be where most players actually focus their ingenuity: finding ways to, essentially, have their cake and eat it too. To reap as many "important" (not necessarily "powerful") rewards of the bad path, while still being do-gooders.

So, I stand by my original claim. Evidence suggests that, in general, most people choose to be good when given the freedom to do whatever they like with the only consequences being what their GM can inflict upon them. Obviously, "most" isn't "all". There are absolutely plenty of people who will do whatever evil they can get away with forever, and there are people who will be very strategic about their evil deeds, and there will be people who need a "purge" to get their selfish-jerk@$$ symptoms out of their system before cooling off after.

Exactly why that's the case isn't strictly necessary for my argument. Just that folks tend to choose good over evil in gaming, when the chips are down and they have to make a decision without knowing all the future consequences.
 

A “drastic shift” is a bad idea. When people buy a game called D&D they expect to be able to play D&D, not some other game, no matter how good it is.
Do remember that calling 4e "some other game" is, for a lot of us fans, straight-up fighting words. "Your game is awesome but it doesn't belong in MY D&D" is not a particularly friendly or positive attitude to take--it is gamer NIMBY.
 

There was a lot of wailing during the beta test and when BG3 first came out that being good was not sufficiently “rewarding”. I do think some people don’t understand the difference between good and mercenary.

Nevertheless, the statistics show that the majority of BG3 players chose good options, even when evil offered better cookies.
Yup, and that is a consistent result across games, which is interesting.
 

This is just a more sophisticated version of the "sales are proof that design is good" argument, which I don't accept.
I didn't say anything about design being good or bad. I talked about WotC's reasons for doing this or that.

They should do this thing because it would make a better product--one they don't need to keep issuing revisions of because it wasn't broken in the first place.
I don't see why WotC has any reason to release what you would consider a better product. It's a game, played by millions of people mostly (I suspect) in a pretty light-hearted way. I think things like clarity of writing, the art and layout, and being appealing as a vehicle for reasonably mainstream fantasy, are important considerations from WotC's point of view. I just don't see any evidence that encounter maths matters all that much, as far as WotC is concerned.

I mean, folks talk all the time of the (alleged) benefits of a truly "evergreen" edition. Wouldn't this kind of testing be precisely what does that, so that they never need to do the hard-overhaul work again, and can instead do light-touch stuff, compendium-style collections of previous publications, etc.?
Why? I mean, to the extent that they ran a 10-year playtest with revisions over the last 2 or 3 years of that time, they made lots of money by selling the playtest game, which then provided the resources to do those revisions. And now they're selling revised books making even more money!

I can see how you would prefer that they did what you are suggesting. But as I posted, I'm not seeing why WotC has any reason to take your advice.

WotC has shown--multiple times--that they're incapable of foreseeing things like this. The "ghoul surprise" is just one prominent example. I mean, remember when they thought Fighters getting extra feats was balanced with the crapload of powerful high-level spells because, from what reports I've heard anyway, they never bothered testing with high-level 3e rules?
To me, this suggest more about the extent to which WotC staff are time-poor and/or aren't all that familiar with the current state of the rules they're demonstrating. And to the extent that that is so, that's a further reason they're not going to do what you're advising them to do.

Ultimately, I think the demand for tightly-designed games is not sufficient to sustain an enterprise on the scale of WotC's D&D.
 

It is worth noting that, consistently, statistics from video games indicate that, for most games, players overwhelmingly (like more than 4:1) favor "good" options over "evil" ones when they're put to the choice. Good example, there's a dog in the Dragonfall campaign of Shadowrun Returns, and he belonged to the PC's friend who perished in the opening. He sometimes comes to you for comfort, as a dog missing his human would do. You can choose to be mean to him or nice to him.

For about 2/3 of the game, that's all it is, the occasional scene where you can be nice to a dog. Then, when your home base is under attack....it turns out he's half-hellhound and can kick some butt. If you were more nice to him than mean to him, he'll help fight. He's not particularly strong and can't wear most equipment, being both magical (which makes augmentation difficult/harmful) and not humanoid. But he is helpful. The efficient option, for min-maxers, is to be mean to him so you can fight him and get more XP. Something like ten times as many people have the achievement for recruiting him than those who have the achievement for killing him, even though a single game can easily accommodate doing both things without restarting.

That's far from the only example, it's just one where I've seen the data with my own eyes. Every time data of this kind gets reported, the pattern remains strong.

Be mean to a puppy? We can play a villain, but not a total monster!

Yes, some people see the freedom of the TTRPG space as a chance to "cut loose" and do all the hedonistic, violent, selfish, horrible things they can't do IRL. But the vast majority, backed up by actual statistics and analysis, genuinely strive to be good people, perhaps even better people than they are/have been IRL.

"People" is a distribution, there will always be some in the extreme tails, and the bigger the population, the more extreme outlier examples you expect to see. But it turns out, video games actually reveal that most people want to do good by others, even when the rewards actually do favor being evil.

I have no doubt that given choice, most people want to play good characters. Though I think the videogame statistics are not helped by evil choices in such games often being pointless "kick puppy because I'm evil" type of stuff. And yeah, the real world has shown that pointless banal evil exists, but people probably want to play complex and nuanced evil in fiction.
 

Be mean to a puppy? We can play a villain, but not a total monster!



I have no doubt that given choice, most people want to play good characters. Though I think the videogame statistics are not helped by evil choices in such games often being pointless "kick puppy because I'm evil" type of stuff. And yeah, the real world has shown that pointless banal evil exists, but people probably want to play complex and nuanced evil in fiction.
The same holds true for Mass Effect. And Renegade isn't even evil.
 

Do remember that calling 4e "some other game" is, for a lot of us fans, straight-up fighting words. "Your game is awesome but it doesn't belong in MY D&D" is not a particularly friendly or positive attitude to take--it is gamer NIMBY.

Be that as it may, if there had been extensive playtesting of 4e, "Does not feel like D&D" would surely have appeared as a significant sentiment.

In general, I am rather sceptical about the usefulness of playtesting and polling. Like "Does this feel like D&D to you?" might actually be a useful thing to poll, but polling on individual mechanics seems pretty pointless. You cannot design by committee and the thing should be more than the sum of its parts.
 

I just don't see any evidence that encounter maths matters all that much, as far as WotC is concerned.
Encounter math certainly matters to WotC...tight math, however, is a different story. The current 5E math allows for the game to work if the DM understood the math considerably, and you have to really work hard to overshoot it. That means a mediocre DM isn't likely to accidentally murder his friends and families characters with a giant rat or something.
To me, this suggest more about the extent to which WotC staff are time-poor and/or aren't all that familiar with the current state of the rules they're demonstrating. And to the extent that that is so, that's a further reason they're not going to do what you're advising them to do.
Given that the published Adventures follow the math in the DMG pretty well, and sell, I think the developers understand and know what they are doing. They simply aren't trying to provide a tightly wound mathematical tactical challenge for each Encounter.
 

Be that as it may, if there had been extensive playtesting of 4e, "Does not feel like D&D" would surely have appeared as a significant sentiment.

In general, I am rather sceptical about the usefulness of playtesting and polling. Like "Does this feel like D&D to you?" might actually be a useful thing to poll, but polling on individual mechanics seems pretty pointless. You cannot design by committee and the thing should be more than the sum of its parts.
I agree that you cannot design by committee.

But having someone on staff who, y'know, is actually a professional at designing surveys for data-gathering...would probably be more useful than the flagrant push-polling we saw from "D&D Next".

Do you remember the poll--I no longer remember what specifically it was about, I think maybe a Fighter thing?--where every single option was "yes" about that thing? You could choose a cautious yes, or an enthusiastic yes, or a neutral yes, or a "tell me more" yes, but you literally could not actually say no.
 

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