D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Maxperson]

To say that there is no mechanical force behind it is the understatement of this site.
An 8 intelligence caster per 5e RAW can cast 9th level spells!
The dude has the ability to cast the highest level spells IN THE GAME but is incapable of determining that a Dispel Magic will be useful in a particular scenario?
So, roleplay-wise what you're going for is, the caster has intricate spells at their disposal but must be roleplayed like I'm not even sure what because they wouldn't know when best to use a Fireball, a Teleport or an Anti-Magic Shield. That must make for exciting combats.

Not me. The game.

The game determined that 8 is below average for intelligence. The game determined that intelligence represents the ability to reason, recall, and mental acuity. The game determined for some silly reason that the same 8 int can cast 9th level spells.

I'm just pointing out what the game does.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The problem with this is that smart wizards, which is almost all of them, would figure out a way to draw in that residual energy over time to fuel any spell they know. They'd be able to cast every spell as a ritual, with the amount of time needed being based on the spell level of the spell being cast.

This was an idea for the setting.
But exploring this idea of residual energy collection - since in my games we play with Magical Disease which may occur by one having too much exposure to magic retaining that residual energy may bring about arcane afflictions.

 

[Maxperson]

I am aware of that pointless and unsupported but of advice existing in print in a system with the mechanics to those rests nearly guaranteeing success outside of an active battlefield. Now please expound on the tools provided to the gm when players of short rest classes feel the number should be far in excess of that and those players also have a video game mindset that results in them blaming the gm for the result of any narrative consequences of their own excess

First, it's not pointless. We are discussing the rather meaningful point right now. Second, why assume gross incompetence on the part of DMs? I've managed to follow that advice since day one of my running 5e WITHOUT mechanics to banhammer me if I step out of line. I'm I so super special for being able to do that? I don't think so. I think that all the game needs to do in order to support it is just.........................tell the DM that 2 is all that should happen. And it does that.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes the rules should do A LOT OF THINGS.
That 5e's Rest system is a design failure is something I have repeatedly said in this thread and over the many years of the game's existence. I'm not sure how 5e24 handles it as I did not acquire the books but I would imagine they never addressed it.


My question was to determine where your problem lay with Short Rests because that is what you alluded to in your reply to @M_Natas.
I've posted upthread some workable solutions, of course those are homebrew ideas.

Now if I had a table that would Short Rest after every 1-2 encounters, and they were resistant to

• Workable houserules, everyone can contirbute; or
• Published solutions from 5e adjacent material

I would take on the gritty system in the 2014 DMG which is 5e RAW and let those B@$t3rd$ suffer!

Id say that the biggest problem is that the dmg section quoted by @Maxperson really only applies to tier1 PCs and breaks down as players move through tier2 into tier 3 levels.

Take the monk & warlock as the prime examples designed to enable 5mwd loops. The monk has a ki pool growing equal to its levelwhile gaining a steady flow of more & more powerful abilities that also themselves often improve. That in itself is fine at earlier levels when there are likely to be more rounds of combat than the monk could spend, but it quickly topples over once the monk has enough ki to last through an encounter or two of burning it at maximum possible speed. Monk is an issue but more as an eager enabler who stands to benefit from excessive resting

The warlock is an even bigger problem getting both spell slot level scaling equal to regular casters and tend to finish a long rest with slot numbers equaling or exceeding what regular casters have of that slot level as if they are pegged to the slot count numbers of ad&d2e/3.5 casters. In tier1 & early tier2 it's not a huge deal if they squeeze in an extra rest but by the time they start the day with 2-3 4th or 5th level slots and regain them each rest it very quickly becomes obvious how lacking GM tools are when players are still expecting
the super generous rest availability of the early levels when PCs were killing rats in the basement equivalent quests

House rules to fix the absolute failure of design and outright disdain wotc has shown towards the idea of supporting GMs on the matter because players with that video game mentality who believe they are entitled to generous short rests will simply view any meaningful infringement on rest availability through house rules as evidence of stereotypical evil/killer gm behavior
@Maxperson mechanics that support the GM in limiting excess and the advice is pointless because of the reasons described above. The rest rules themselves provide extreme support in resisting a gm who is unreasonably restrictive but when it comes to the idea of players with short rest classes having an unreasonable expectation class design wotc & the ruleset itself does not even acknowledge it as possible for the players to have an expectation of excess.

 

[James Gasik]

So Tales of the Valiant has this metacurrency for the GM called Doom, which can be spent for various effects to ruin the PC's days. I'm wondering if a mechanic like that could solve the problems with rests, where each time you take a rest in an adventure, you accrue more threat/bad karma that the DM can use against you later, giving you a reason to try and avoid resting too much?

 

[Staffan]

The problem with this is that smart wizards, which is almost all of them, would figure out a way to draw in that residual energy over time to fuel any spell they know. They'd be able to cast every spell as a ritual, with the amount of time needed being based on the spell level of the spell being cast.

We used to have an RPG in Sweden that had an in-lore explanation for something like this. Basically, spells used a metaphysic thing called "filaments", which in D&D terms would be like threads in the weave, and more powerful spells of course used more filaments. But you couldn't just push more filaments into the spell, but because of metaphysics the different filaments needed different levels of complexity – you couldn't just push three filaments into a third degree spell, they needed to be a 1st degree, a 2nd degree, and a 3rd degree filament, because filaments of the same degree couldn't co-exist. In-game, it was mostly an explanation for why the difficulty of spellcasting increased so rapidly with additional filaments, but I always thought it was a cool explanation.

And you could easily use a similar explanation for D&D. It doesn't matter how much cantrip-quality magic power you gather, you can't use it to cast a fireball.

 

[Scribe]

So Tales of the Valiant has this metacurrency for the GM called Doom, which can be spent for various effects to ruin the PC's days. I'm wondering if a mechanic like that could solve the problems with rests, where each time you take a rest in an adventure, you accrue more threat/bad karma that the DM can use against you later, giving you a reason to try and avoid resting too much?

Daggerheart has a similar mechanism, and its awesome.

 

[mamba]

So Tales of the Valiant has this metacurrency for the GM called Doom, which can be spent for various effects to ruin the PC's days. I'm wondering if a mechanic like that could solve the problems with rests

I like the idea, esp. since I like their Doom system to begin with

 

[BenjaminPey]

Rests opening up "hard moves" (however you want to call it) for the DM is basically what we were all saying with our "rests have narrative consequences". Time passing, random encounters, bad guys organising: all these are DM hard moves in PbtA parlance.

 

[M_Natas]

So Tales of the Valiant has this metacurrency for the GM called Doom, which can be spent for various effects to ruin the PC's days. I'm wondering if a mechanic like that could solve the problems with rests, where each time you take a rest in an adventure, you accrue more threat/bad karma that the DM can use against you later, giving you a reason to try and avoid resting too much?

Maybe something as simple as a luck point for the DM per short rest and 3 for a long rest with no maximum cap for luck point numbers.