D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Scott Christian]

It's not a goblin clan of 3. It's the remaining 10 goblins after the party goes into the goblin cave, novas 20 of them down, then runs away to rest.

The surviving goblins have 8 hours to gather resources to combat an adventuring party that already killed the plurality of the goblin warriors a few hours ago.

In what world are you pitting 30 ho-hum, regular goblins, who are encountered separated from each other, against four 5th level adventurers? I don't know anyone who would design something like that. I mean, it sounds like you're just plopping a grid down and playing Warhammer.

You have to be fifth level to cast LTH. A fifth level "dungeon" with goblins would presumably have a quest tied to it. Such as, the goblins ransacked a halfling town and kidnapped some of the kids. Of course, there are the goblin dogs they rode in on. The hill giant, who is their task master. And the clever goblin mage and its buffed hobgoblin cronies, that forced the hill giant to get the goblins to put the entire plan into motion. There are probably two separate areas in regard to those groups as well.

That is an appropriate fifth level adventure.

Go in there and nova with captured kids around. Go in there and nova everything and cast LTH. Watch the hill giant come in and collapse the cave on you.

Honestly, if you are not playing with any narrative components or consideration to encounter design, your point is absolutely true. But, if you play with any DM that intelligently designs their encounters, it no longer becomes just a number game. It becomes an adventure.

 

[Scott Christian]

The players can LRH & long or short∆ rest at any point in an adventure so unless that is being refuted & swept under the rug this reads like it almost needs random portals to the goblin home world and dungeon core managed dungeons needed to support that ewok move by a group of goblins bandits or whatever encountering LTH in an empty room somewhere. That kind of respawn solution doesn't particularly fit most settings though..


I can't think of any d&d or ttrpg settings that build out the world even a little around anything like spawn points that provide challenge. Going beyond that ime
Anime/litrpg fiction rarely uses such an overt heavy handed application of monster spawns even when the characters are literally in a game. At best you seem to be describing a risk that could hypothetically be faced by a limited use relic in a system with a much higher bar on resting/recovery.

∆ once again, short rest classes don't need a long rest to recover their nova.

I am not for respawning. Never have been. But I am for having a narrative in my role playing game. I am also for designing encounters that make sense. If it's just thirty goblins in a cave, the military would have wiped them out a long time ago. It honestly sounds like the people complaining about LTH want to play a game of monster hunter, not D&D. They want a system where each monster encounter exhausts all of the party's resources. The Witcher approach - which, if I may add - I have always liked.

But, with any narrative driven game, there is always more than just 20 goblins. There are tiers, and odd funk that is added, be it traps, plagues, odd alchemical things, etc. And of course, this still also shows that everyone chose the goblin example, rather than choosing any of the other A-named monsters that I listed from MM. That's because many of those things would have ways around this "supposed" problem with LTH. (Which, by the way, is what this whole discussion is about. Not whether a party can nova twenty goblins, but about how they nova 20 goblins, and then full rest, then nova 20 more, then full rest, rinse and repeat.)

 

[Parmandur]

honestly sounds like the people complaining about LTH want to play a game of monster hunter

 

[Minigiant]

In what world are you pitting 30 ho-hum, regular goblins, who are encountered separated from each other, against four 5th level adventurers? I don't know anyone who would design something like that. I mean, it sounds like you're just plopping a grid down and playing Warhammer

I've seen it.

That's why this is mostly a DM problem of DMs not adjusting to tiers.

You have to be fifth level to cast LTH. A fifth level "dungeon" with goblins would presumably have a quest tied to it. Such as, the goblins ransacked a halfling town and kidnapped some of the kids. Of course, there are the goblin dogs they rode in on. The hill giant, who is their task master. And the clever goblin mage and its buffed hobgoblin cronies, that forced the hill giant to get the goblins to put the entire plan into motion. There are probably two separate areas in regard to those groups as well.

Outside of the 1 caster, your enemies lack recovery or ramp.

Hence the need for a quest to rush players forward.

 

[tetrasodium]

I am not for respawning. Never have been. But I am for having a narrative in my role playing game. I am also for designing encounters that make sense. If it's just thirty goblins in a cave, the military would have wiped them out a long time ago. It honestly sounds like the people complaining about LTH want to play a game of monster hunter, not D&D. They want a system where each monster encounter exhausts all of the party's resources. The Witcher approach - which, if I may add - I have always liked.

But, with any narrative driven game, there is always more than just 20 goblins. There are tiers, and odd funk that is added, be it traps, plagues, odd alchemical things, etc. And of course, this still also shows that everyone chose the goblin example, rather than choosing any of the other A-named monsters that I listed from MM. That's because many of those things would have ways around this "supposed" problem with LTH. (Which, by the way, is what this whole discussion is about. Not whether a party can nova twenty goblins, but about how they nova 20 goblins, and then full rest, then nova 20 more, then full rest, rinse and repeat.)

If your devil's advocating for an awful solution, please say so up front? My pointin that quoted post is that for your solution to work, especially with short rest nova build heavy parties, it pretty much requires on demand spawn point level sourcing . Without that level of sourcing it strains credibility that sufficient numbers could be sourced on demand. Your post even takes pains to point out a good narrative reason why the idea of goblins going ewok on LTH to smack down rest early rest often and here you are arguing again similar sentiment suggesting that the gm engage in various forms of basic adventure design as if the reasons that falls shirt when players feel restveaely restviften is the design intent of play supported by the rules had not already been discussed at length.

That sourcing problem is not one that only applies to the ewok goblins someone raised as an example solution that a decent gm could deploy against rest early rest often players resting in LTH. pretty much any foescof any level /cr is going to have difficulty credibility sourcing numbers required to deliver the punch needed to deal with rest early rest often party nova potential with the frequency and speed required.

In what world are you pitting 30 ho-hum, regular goblins, who are encountered separated from each other, against four 5th level adventurers? I don't know anyone who would design something like that. I mean, it sounds like you're just plopping a grid down and playing Warhammer.

You have to be fifth level to cast LTH. A fifth level "dungeon" with goblins would presumably have a quest tied to it. Such as, the goblins ransacked a halfling town and kidnapped some of the kids. Of course, there are the goblin dogs they rode in on. The hill giant, who is their task master. And the clever goblin mage and its buffed hobgoblin cronies, that forced the hill giant to get the goblins to put the entire plan into motion. There are probably two separate areas in regard to those groups as well.

That is an appropriate fifth level adventure.

Go in there and nova with captured kids around. Go in there and nova everything and cast LTH. Watch the hill giant come in and collapse the cave on you.

Honestly, if you are not playing with any narrative components or consideration to encounter design, your point is absolutely true. But, if you play with any DM that intelligently designs their encounters, it no longer becomes just a number game. It becomes an adventure.

The original assertion was that rest early rest often and spells like LTH wasn't an issue because the GM could engage in an ewok scenario with mud&sticks or something. Since the goblins were being used to hypothetically smack down the scenario in question I assume it became 30 because of this

Spoiler

AI Overview

F$&% CR, There's a Better Way (Part 2) | The Angry GM
For five 5th-level adventurers, a deadly encounter requires about 24 CR 1/4 goblins based on the Dungeon Master's Guide guidelines, though a slightly lower number like 20 could also be considered deadly depending on the goblins' tactics and the adventurers' remaining resources. This calculation involves determining the deadly threshold and accounting for the encounter multiplier for a large number of monsters

24 seems close enough in exasperated eyeball math to 30 for such a ridiculous example as goblins using mud and sticks to justify wotc not fixing the design problems that incentive rest early rest often and design against meaningful narrative consequences like I pointed out in 1860 a page back in response to yet another flawed solution for a GM to use if the system itself did not design against it.

 

[M_Natas]

If your devil's advocating for an awful solution, please say so up front? My pointin that quoted post is that for your solution to work, especially with short rest nova build heavy parties, it pretty much requires on demand spawn point level sourcing . Without that level of sourcing it strains credibility that sufficient numbers could be sourced on demand. Your post even takes pains to point out a good narrative reason why the idea of goblins going ewok on LTH to smack down rest early rest often and here you are arguing again similar sentiment suggesting that the gm engage in various forms of basic adventure design as if the reasons that falls shirt when players feel restveaely restviften is the design intent of play supported by the rules had not already been discussed at length.

That sourcing problem is not one that only applies to the ewok goblins someone raised as an example solution that a decent gm could deploy against rest early rest often players resting in LTH. pretty much any foescof any level /cr is going to have difficulty credibility sourcing numbers required to deliver the punch needed to deal with rest early rest often party nova potential with the frequency and speed required.

The original assertion was that rest early rest often and spells like LTH wasn't an issue because the GM could engage in an ewok scenario with mud&sticks or something. Since the goblins were being used to hypothetically smack down the scenario in question I assume it became 30 because of this

Spoiler

AI Overview

F$&% CR, There's a Better Way (Part 2) | The Angry GM
For five 5th-level adventurers, a deadly encounter requires about 24 CR 1/4 goblins based on the Dungeon Master's Guide guidelines, though a slightly lower number like 20 could also be considered deadly depending on the goblins' tactics and the adventurers' remaining resources. This calculation involves determining the deadly threshold and accounting for the encounter multiplier for a large number of monsters

24 seems close enough in exasperated eyeball math to 30 for such a ridiculous example as goblins using mud and sticks to justify wotc not fixing the design problems that incentive rest early rest often and design against meaningful narrative consequences like I pointed out in 1860 a page back in response to yet another flawed solution for a GM to use if the system itself did not design against it.

AI is wrong and the math is off.
If we follow the 2024 rules, a high difficulty (the new deadly) encounter for 4 level 5 PCs is worth 4400xp. Divided by 50xp for a goblin warriors, thats 88 Goblin Warriors.
A 5th level party should be able to handle at least 2 high and a low encounter. Thats 11000 xp Budget. Thats 220 Goblin Warriors running around.

To be fair, the DMG says, usually don't do more than 2 monsters per pc per encounter, unless they are cannon fodder. But I would say, CR 1/4 Goblins count as cannon fodder. We could double the number of goblins if we are taking goblin minions (25xp).

So, in the Goblin Tribe are somewhere between 200 and 400 Goblins and the first battle encounter would need to be atleast 88 of those. Everything under 50 is trivial for the party.

 

[Zardnaar]

AI is wrong and the math is off.
If we follow the 2024 rules, a high difficulty (the new deadly) encounter for 4 level 5 PCs is worth 4400xp. Divided by 50xp for a goblin warriors, thats 88 Goblin Warriors.
A 5th level party should be able to handle at least 2 high and a low encounter. Thats 11000 xp Budget. Thats 220 Goblin Warriors running around.

To be fair, the DMG says, usually don't do more than 2 monsters per pc per encounter, unless they are cannon fodder. But I would say, CR 1/4 Goblins count as cannon fodder. We could double the number of goblins if we are taking goblin minions (25xp).

So, in the Goblin Tribe are somewhere between 200 and 400 Goblins and the first battle encounter would need to be atleast 88 of those. Everything under 50 is trivial for the party.

I've theory crafted this and a conga line of goblin minions focusing fire a PC would kill them.

Completely useless if spirit guardians is involved.

 

[M_Natas]

I've theory crafted this and a conga line of goblin minions focusing fire a PC would kill them.

Completely useless if spirit guardians is involved.

Spirit Guardians is useless if the goblins don't go into melee.
Like come on. Goblins are ambush fighters. They use elevated positions, the use position where they easily can hide. Their.home terrain/lair would reflect that. So the entrance area would be a big cave with elevated platforms that you only can reach trough other tunnels, but not the entrance area (or by flying). Goblins shoot at the intruders, than nimble hide.
Rinse repeat.

 

[Maxperson]

To be fair, the DMG says, usually don't do more than 2 monsters per pc per encounter, unless they are cannon fodder. But I would say, CR 1/4 Goblins count as cannon fodder. We could double the number of goblins if we are taking goblin minions (25xp).

So, in the Goblin Tribe are somewhere between 200 and 400 Goblins and the first battle encounter would need to be atleast 88 of those. Everything under 50 is trivial for the party.

1e MM Goblins... "NO. APPEARING: 40-400"

 

[Zardnaar]

Spirit Guardians is useless if the goblins don't go into melee.
Like come on. Goblins are ambush fighters. They use elevated positions, the use position where they easily can hide. Their.home terrain/lair would reflect that. So the entrance area would be a big cave with elevated platforms that you only can reach trough other tunnels, but not the entrance area (or by flying). Goblins shoot at the intruders, than nimble hide.
Rinse repeat.

Goblin minions dont have ranged attacks.