D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Maxperson]

Goblin minions dont have ranged attacks.

Yes they do. Part of the monster rules is the DM can give monsters whatever weapons he wants them to have. It's not like goblin minions will explode if they don't have the example weapon from the stat block.

 

[AnotherGuy]

AI is wrong and the math is off.
If we follow the 2024 rules, a high difficulty (the new deadly) encounter for 4 level 5 PCs is worth 4400xp. Divided by 50xp for a goblin warriors, thats 88 Goblin Warriors.
A 5th level party should be able to handle at least 2 high and a low encounter. Thats 11000 xp Budget. Thats 220 Goblin Warriors running around.

To be fair, the DMG says, usually don't do more than 2 monsters per pc per encounter, unless they are cannon fodder. But I would say, CR 1/4 Goblins count as cannon fodder. We could double the number of goblins if we are taking goblin minions (25xp).

So, in the Goblin Tribe are somewhere between 200 and 400 Goblins and the first battle encounter would need to be atleast 88 of those. Everything under 50 is trivial for the party.

With that many goblins I would use mob tactics as per the DMG.
PCs build up crazy AC and rolling so many times just to miss is disheartening, so I switch to mob tactics and other forms of attack with help actions (grapple, trip, etc) against casters

 

[Maxperson]

It's that goblins in D&D in 0e, 1e, 2e, 3e, and 5e are:

1. Mostly Stupid
2. Mostly Poor
3. Mostly Noncombat, Underworld, or Martial
4. Have Low tech primitive resources and equipment
5. Have no ability to summon allies
6. Have very few casters
7. Have very few craftspeople

So they are very very vulnerable to hit and run tactics because their available resources within a few days are mostly finite, weak, and limited.

1e MM says goblins could have slings and spears.
2e goblins say that they use spears, maces, and short swords.
3e goblins have morning stars and javelins in their stat block.
5e goblins? No reason for them not to have access to ranged weapons. Especially since the rules say the DM can arm and armor them in plate mail, short swords and crossbows if he wants.

So for most editions, every goblin, orc, bandit, ogre, cultist you kill is not being replaced in power in 12 hours. Probably not for several days at best.

You keep saying that, but you have zero proof of that being the case. Being stupid doesn't mean you don't have allies within distance. Being poor does not mean you don't have allies withing distance. Being low tech doesn't mean that you don't have allies within distance. Having no magical summoning abilities does not mean you don't have allies within distance.

Nothing you listed has any bearing on whether or not they know a few ogres, or a hag, or some hobgoblins, or a ton of other possibilities within distance that they may or may not be able to recruit to help them.

 

[Maxperson]

Enemies making preparations, calling reinforcements and advancing their nefarious plots whilst the PCs rest is obviously something that should happen. I just feel that significant developments that actually matter are hella lot easier to narratively justify with the week long long rests than the normal eight hour ones. Often the situation is that the enemies are already prepared for someone attacking them, so if they could significantly improve their position in a few hours, they would have already done so.

Yeah. If it's a week, many more will have allies within range. Instead of some having allies they can get to in time, it will be a lot of them that have allies that they can get to in time.

 

[Maxperson]

Kinda the real question is: Can they do more than the the spells and abilities can do that the players get back by resting?
The best option might really be: Leave the area. But giving up your base of operations isn't something trivially done, usually, either. It's home, it's a place you thought you'd be safe - how long until you find another one that is just as good? The Goblins leaving with their treasure seems like a nice Gotcha until the Ranger starts looking for tracks of the Goblins carrying those treasure chests.

The answer to that first question is maybe/sometimes. Other times fleeing might be the best option.

 

[SkidAce]

Goblin minions dont have ranged attacks.

Hand them a shortbow.

 

[Minigiant]

Kinda the real question is: Can they do more than the the spells and abilities can do that the players get back by resting?

And that's the rub typically in D&D how most DMS create their dungeons the monsters are already at 100% power and readiness.

They cannot increase their power or readiness and quick time frames unless they are also characters who have abilities that the players do.

But because the majority of DMs like simple monsters or easy to run monsters or idiotic monsters or chaotic evil monsters the monsters have no ability to increase their power or readiness.

 

[Marc17]

I'm guessing you assumed that the multiple posters pointing their ire at overly generous overly certain rest/recovery mechanics were the ones to bring up goblins as a legitimate challenge to PCs, it was the other side of the discussion suggesting things like using cr 1/4 goblins to counter rest early rest often with a party capable of casting a 3rd level ritual spell though. If that was known rather than mere oversight jumping in late though it kinda illustrates how far from useful so much of the defense for these design decisions falls.


It didn't take long for your suggestion to crash into how 5e design choices kneecap it's efficacy as a solution to the problem, that actually came up early on when it was noted the way that design choice encourages rest early rest often by designing against incentives that would work against it. I don't think that the multiple posters who have noted the way badly designed rest mechanics combine with class design to incentivize poor player behavior are unaware of that. For those who seem to think purely narrative consequences are the only tool gms need , I'm sure that the idea of not getting treasure their PCs DONT need would be a notable loss... But that's not really the case with players who feel the game requires they be allowed rest early rest often because the rules encourage it so heavily and wotc's inaction beyond actively undercutting the GM. Those players already know that their PCs don't require magic item churn or even magic items at all.

That bolded bit was a serious concern in past editions. In fact it was so much of a concern that players would often push on rather than resorting to anything 5mwd adjacent because they knew their characters required a steady influx of magic items and consumables that would either fall directly under "treasure/supplies" or be sourced through selling it for the magic items and consumables that they needed.

The design of 5e clubs your suggestion in the knees right from the start by designing around the idea of PCs running chargen to grave with starting gear. Even worse for the suggestion is that rest early rest often & nova loops obliterate any need for the sort of consumables that might fall under treasure & supplies. That's particularly bad given that the dmg used to talk about why it was important to thread the needle right when it came to that kind of stuff rather than designing so it was never needed and adding a cherry to that by giving us monsters that assumed PCs would output like 5-6x less

I can ramble on like this thread, and just blurt out ideas as I have them. Still, that bolded part wasn't there for the players sake, but rather to show that the goblins had what they needed. Look, for whatever reason, the players have decided to slaughter these goblins and do it in a piecemeal manner of guerrilla warfare. If everybody is having fun, then great, no reason to do anything different. If the the players or DM are having issues with that style of play, an option is to show the consequences of their actions. For taking the easy route, the goblins escape. Chances are that such a group doesn't have it in them to track a few goblins off into the wilderness for long. That leaves it as an option for the goblins to just return and next year come back even stronger. So, a year after that adventure, word gets to the adventurers that they're being blamed for not doing the job they said they did and a village has paid for their laziness. (This is all slanted as I have been reading a lot of Goblin Slayer lately.) Another option to such players guerrilla warfare would just be to design the encounters to deal with it (and that would be a whole other thread unto itself). In world, everybody would know this tactic and set up things to deal with it to begin with. The easiest way to do that is that everybody is together and for large combats, but that means long combats which some don't want either.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They cannot increase their power or readiness and quick time frames unless they are also characters who have abilities that the players do.

Which is drawback of simplified enemy statblocks. If they have proper PC-like features this can also inform what they can do out of combat. I often give enemy spellcasters more spells, and tend to assume that despite their simplified combat profiles they "actually" have PC-like casting capabilities for narrative purposes. I also like boosting humanoid enemies by giving them class features such as sneak attack and rage.

 

[Minigiant]

ou keep saying that, but you have zero proof of that being the case. Being stupid doesn't mean you don't have allies within distance. Being poor does not mean you don't have allies withing distance. Being low tech doesn't mean that you don't have allies within distance. Having no magical summoning abilities does not mean you don't have allies within distance.

Quantum allies then?

They have allies within distance when you go 8 encounters and are spent as well as when you do 3 encounters and rest.

Either way you are spending 24 hours in the area.

If so then guerrilla tactics make the most sense if not rush by narrative.