D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[mamba]

I know you think it is overpowered. That is the claim people are making. I gave three reasons it is not overpowered.

I am aware of those ‘reasons’, I don’t believe your claim that they balance the spell

As I stated earlier, if you have a problem with the aesthetic, like it not breaking no matter how much damage is done to it, I agree.

good, that is my point, and it is about the power, not just aesthetics

 

[Minigiant]

The thread is literally D&D 5e. Go look in the 5e MM. Come back and tell me the monsters in there are mostly dumb and tactless.

Many of the common monsters in the first 2 tiers of 5.0e are Intelligence 9 or lower and are described as warlike, violent, chaotic, rough, or cowardly and have Charisma under 10.

 

[Zardnaar]

Many of the common monsters in the first 2 tiers of 5.0e are Intelligence 9 or lower and are described as warlike, violent, chaotic, rough, or cowardly and have Charisma under 10.

MM or a gamestore?

 

[Minigiant]

MM or a gamestore?

Monster Manual 2014.

Most of the low level monsters native to the material plane have low mental stats. And the humaniods are often barbaric, primitive, or have scavenged equipment.

MM 2024 is much better because it embraces that enemies might have decent technology, decent equipment, access to magic, and the logistics to bring in allies quickly.


However those very things that 2024 offer are the same things that critics of the 2024 monster manual say they don't like. No casters, no guns, no seige weapons, too civilized, not violet savages with attack each other the second they see weaknesses.

 

[nevin]

You totally skipped over answering the question and only broadened it from "how many times before players start calling the gm unprepared?" to add "and how long before the obvious adversarial arms race results in players feeling like the GM is openly adversarial?". Both of those questions apply because the players approaching eiya video game play to win mindset are % certain that rest early rest often is expected reasonable and reinforced by wotc's treatment of the issue for over a decade given RAW+RAI of the rules

Edit: before anyone thinks to rightly suggest that the players should be better than that, I'll say that such a declaration is far from reaching the level of being barely useful gm support without solid support in the published rules and community engagement from wotc.

I've been running monsters and adversaries considering intelligence, what they know and how I think instinctively the less intelligent and wild things would act. only had a few players get whiney about me being adverserial. Generally after a few encounters they start using common sense instead of just hack and slash/give me my treasure. Where I see most other DM's fail this type of handling things is they get hung up on the treasure/reward ratio's and start actually playing against the players. If I jack up an encounter and the players manage to "Get over" because of my mistake that's real world as it gets. Sometime's being lucky is better than being good.

If the DM trys too hard to make every encounter "balanced" or "hard" or "whatever" eventually the players will start to notice that things are always stacked against them and then they will lock horns and begin to play against the DM instead of simply playing the game. Trying to week out the luck good and bad to keep everything "balanced" and controlled is the biggest problem I see with the DM's who want the game to be perfect. Things are never always balanced an even in real life. IMO they shouldn't be in game either. Sometimes the PC's should get to kick low level scumbags tails and sometimes they should just have to run like hell because they overreached.

 

[pemerton]

Ugh this thread has cemented my distaste for adhering RAW to the CR system. I’ll never use it more than as a vague guideline. If giving short bows to goblins is “cheesing the system” then to hell with the system. That’s utterly preposterous.

Well, if bows make the Goblins tougher, then shouldn't that increase their CR? I mean, isn't CR meant to be a (rough but not worthless) measure of toughness?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I dunno, maybe someone has already mentioned this but it is worth saying again even if it has. The PCs can only benefit from one long rest every 24 hours. LTH only lasts 8 hours. Are some parties at some tables casting it multiple times to get to that next adventuring day fully resourced? Sounds like a game with zero time pressure. I would find that incredibly boring as a player. Where are the bold, daring adventures risking life and limb for treasure and tales? Ugh. To each their own, I suppose.

 

[Scott Christian]

Many of the common monsters in the first 2 tiers of 5.0e are Intelligence 9 or lower and are described as warlike, violent, chaotic, rough, or cowardly and have Charisma under 10.

First, PCs do not get LTH until fifth level, at the earliest. And that is at the expense of a possibly, more threatening spell. That means we are talking about higher CRs than tier 1. But please, let's have a look at the MM:
AArakocra (CR 1/4)
Azer (CR2)
Banshee (CR4)
Spectator (Beholder Light) (CR3)
Bugbear Chief (CR3)
Cambion (CR5)
Couatl (CR4)
Shadow Demon (CR4)
Imp (CR1)
Spined Devil (CR2)
Doppleganger (CR3)
Black Dragon Wyrmling (CR2)
Blue Dragon Wyrmling (CR3)
Green Dragon Wyrmling (CR2)
Red Dragon Wyrmling (CR4)
Brass Dragon Wyrmling (CR1)
Bronze Dragon Wyrmling (CR2)
Copper Dragon Wyrmling (CR1)
Gold Dragon Wyrmling (CR3)
Silver Dragon Wyrmling (CR2)
Dryad (CR1)
Duergar (CR1)
Drow (CR 1/4)
Drow Elite Warrior (CR5)
Faerie Dragon (CR1)
Flameskull (CR4)
Flumph (CR1/8)
Ghost (CR4)
Ghast (CR2)
Githyanki Warrior (CR3)
Githzerai Monk (CR2)
Gnoll Fang (CR4)
Deep Gnome (CR1/2)
Goblin Boss (CR1)
Grell (CR3)
Green Hag (CR3)
Night Hag (CR5)
Sea Hag (CR2)

I will stop now. These are all the monsters in the 2014 MM up to the letter G. All of the ones I listed have a CR rating below the group's expected level for combat. And all of them have an intelligence above a 10! It is literally not that hard to see with this evidence that these creatures are intelligent enough to make life miserable for the group once they come out of LTH.

And, as a side note, if we averaged the intelligence of the monsters above, they would have a higher or the same intelligence than the stat blocks of a knight, druid, cultist, cult fanatic, guard, bandit or spy. Go to a keep full of knights, kill half of them, cast LTH, and see what they come up with when you pop out. That is the same as all of the creatures above.

 

[Staffan]

Where are the bold, daring adventures risking life and limb for treasure and tales?

They're over in Draw Steel.

 

[Scott Christian]

I am aware of those ‘reasons’, I don’t believe your claim that they balance the spell

Fair enough. So the tables you play at don't have narrative that stops the players from using LTH to "win" every combat? To be trope laden: the princess just dies and they are ok with it? The kidnapped townsfolk get sacrificed and they are ok with it? The artifact needed to stop the invasion doesn't get there in time, and they are ok with it? The bard is ok with their college being ransacked? The wizard is ok with their lab being burnt down? The paladin is ok with the church being defaced?

It just seems like a strange way of playing.