D&D 5E Mike Mearls on Settings

[discosoc]

Forgotten Realms has always been, by design, a melting pot. An everything goes, let's have everything for everyone type of campaign. It's also quite high magic, high fantasy.

Greyhawk had more of an old school feel. So armies of orcs, not armies of undead lead by a lich king. Think LOTR versus WOW. Both fun in their own rights, but different.

Or at least that's my perspective. I'm sure other people can give you much more detail.

That makes sense on paper, but in practice -- or when describing it on the back of a book -- both settings sound like the same generic fantasy setting. Back in the 3e days, I knew people that thought Greyhawk was just a different region of Forgotten Realms.

In some ways, I think Dragonlance might be in the same boat, but it *is* easier to differentiate it by focusing on the more romantic or character-driven details. You'll still have a problem reconciling the reality that most players love Dragonlance because of the War of the Lance stories, but the settings always seem to default to the ages after that (ages that are much more generic).

I think with Greyhawk, they'd need to find a way to focus it on a theme of some sort (and marketing it as a more old-school setting just isn't going to cut it. Maybe Greyhawk could be 'dark and gritty fantasy setting' to contrast the 'high magic fantasy' of Forgotten Realms. I could even see elements of the old Birthright setting getting incorporated into a Greyhawk reboot.

 

[PMárk]

I wouldn't mind them doing Greyhawk if they actually took the time to flesh the world out and give us loads of detail they we never got before.

Unfortunately the current D&D team is the group of people to actually do that. I would rather see settings that all have their own unique thing done.

Just started to read the thread, but wanted to answer to this: I think Greyhawk actually might be a better match to their publication model than FR. SCAG was anemic, but GH doesnt't have or need as much as FR and not as story-driven, so a one-time, slim CG might be more adequate for it.

 

[Zaukrie]

I agree that greyhawk and the realms are too similar for it to matter. Dark sun is clearly different. Ebberron is clearly different. I like Mike, but this feels fanboyish. But then, I don't need to look back for adventures, I would prefer new stuff. Maybe I am not the market for this edition's approach

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[hawkeyefan]

I mostly agree. But they just did Ravenloft, and frankly the number of actual rules changes to function in the setting wasn't that much really.

My 5E campaign has taken place in multiple settings, and it's honestly very easy to just play the game in the settings you like and not worry so much about the rules.

But I don't know if you can actually achieve what Mearls was talking about....some way to make Greyhawk feel significantly different and unique....without altering the rules or adjusting them in some way. Similar to how Primeval Thule and the 5E Lord of the Rings game have modified 5E rules systems to match their setting. Different classes, modified abilities, scaled magic, etc.

I would expect something at least along those lines. Otherwise, as we've all kind of been saying, it just doesn't seem to be worth it.

 

[darjr]

Forgotten Realms, internal intrigue and political conflict with an occasional hot war. Think post medieval cold war like atmosphere including spies and assasins with the occasional nuke. Where the gods are actively a part of that struggle.

Greyhawk is more a post apocalyptic middle ages were hot war between states is almost constant with times of stalemates. A world seemingly abandoned by the gods.

 

[Stormdale]

And you could come up with Greyhawk-specific spells (with spellcaster names attached to them) just as FR has FR-specific spells. But you don't really need any of those races or spells to run either setting.

You mean like:
Mondekaenin Magnificent mansion
Leomund's Tiny hut
Tensers Floating disk
Nystul's magic aura
Melf's Acid Arrow
Evard's black tentacles
Bigby's hand

All originally Greyhawk spells from Greyhawk PCs/NPCs.

I've gamed Greyhawk since '83 and still use the 83 Folio as the basis for my campaigns (which are set almost always pre-wars), but also have the Out of the Ashes stuff and 3E guide to draw on if needed. However, I've also run plenty of games in the FR using the '89 Grey Box and a few of the source books (eg Savage Frontier/ the North) with a smattering of info from the 3E campaign guide.

I've enjoyed games in both settings but overall my preference is Greyhawk as I prefer the grittier vibe and political situation it involves-nation state level bickering/ machinations as opposed to a pack of interferring NGOs and less coherent (IMO anyway) history but also because I've more than 30 years of campaigns that have added rich stories to my version of Greyhawk. I've run a couple of campaigns in the past three years acquainting my current group to Greyhawk (currently using elements of PoTA + parts of the original ToEE & the 3E RttToEE) as none of them had ever gamed there before.

I would be happy to simply see some of the earlier works reprinted/updated but they are probably available online anyway. However, modern players probably want more crunch and detail than Gygax's wonderful broad brushstrokes- I don't mean that in a negative way, just times and gamer expectations have changed.

Stormdale

 

[Mercule]

As someone new to D&D with this addition, I don’t get the appeal of updating old settings. (I admit this is most likely due to the fact that I am new to this addition.) The one thing that I believe 3PP has done better than anything is settings. You have Primeval Thule, you have the Midgard kickstarter, you have the Talislanta kickstarter, and many more 3PP settings, do you really need WOTC to provide older settings.

Many of us old-timers have our favorites that we'd like to see updated, stat-wise. Personally, I think Greyhawk is what it is. Gygax did a great job of giving it a certain flavor, but no other author has really quite managed to update it well. As much as I loved the old red-and-gold box, I think it's best left alone.

On the other hand, I do not like the implications of having a single WotC-published setting available. I think it sends the message that D&D is primarily associated with a single setting, which diminishes possibly my favorite thing about D&D -- creating and customizing the setting. The fact that I've never cared for the Realms, specifically, makes it all the more aggravating that it happens to be the marque setting, but I wouldn't want any setting to be getting as much spotlight as the Realms do. Having any other WotC-published settings at least communicates that the Realms are officially just one option among many, even if it happens to be the most supported.

Yes, there was a time when Greyhawk was the only published setting for 1E AD&D. The way it was presented, however, was substantively different. It was pretty darn clear that Gygax (therefore TSR) implicitly assumed that the (vast) majority of DMs would be creating their own settings, if they bothered with much detail at all. Greyhawk was more of an example of what one could do with a setting and/or a quick-start for groups to use. It was definitely a fully-realized setting with a ton of history, nations, deities, etc. -- the red-and-gold box has maps showing what each nation's primary resources are and showing the early migratory paths of the major human ethnicities as well as sections detailing things like the garb in various regions. It just wasn't presented as nearly as "core" as the Realms sometimes are, today.

So, if they produce a Greyhawk setting book, I'll buy it. Mostly, I'll buy it not because I plan on running a game in Greyhawk, but because I'm voting with my dollar. I'll vote for adventures that don't mention the Five Factions. I'll vote for adventures that don't have maps in the Realms. I'll vote for anything that makes it clear that there's more than one setting for D&D and that the SCAG (or any other, specific, setting book) shouldn't be even remotely considered another "normal startup" purchase for a group.

 

[Mercule]

Where Greyhawk went south is when they ignored that difference and brought in the Greyhawk wars. They added High Fantasy to a setting that didn't need or (in my case anyway) want it. Vast undead armies battling across the setting and the Fate of the World hanging in the balance. That's NOT what S&S fiction is about. At least, not very often .

I didn't pick up Wars, but read enough of it to agree -- it was not a good thing. Unfortunately, it somewhat split the fanbase between the red-and-gold box and the Wars folks. As far as I can tell, the Wars folks have moved on, but I won't be surprised if there are a few around to throw things at me. I'm afraid that whatever Mearls does is going to be more Wars than red-and-gold box. *sigh*

To me, a Greyhawk build for 5e would focus on those core concepts:

• Adventures are local
• Adventurers are rare
• The higher ups of the setting, the big wizards, the generals, the kings, are background and backdrops (and possibly occasionally victims )
• Weird, weird, weird.
• Morality isn't really a thing. The heroes aren't doing it for God and Country. They're doing it because they want something for themselves.

No disagreements, from me. The way I've heard it phrased (by Gygax, maybe?) was:

Evil-hating neutrals.

I've always liked that turn of phrase. Adventurers in Greyhawk aren't (usually) doing it out of altruism. They're doing it because orcs, dragons, etc. have cool toys. Also, they aren't really troubled by the whole killing monstrous creatures thing -- the creatures, they're monsters, and monsters are for killing, duh. Sure, you've got paladins, the Shield Lands, etc. but even they just have to suck it up and deal with the fact that most other "competent" folks are pretty much just mercenaries. Even then, the paladins tend to be kinda jerks and comfortable with dispatching their foes and letting the gods sort things out.

When Greyhawk heroes deal with world-changing events, it's as likely to be because demigods taking over the city of Greyhawk would be incredibly inconvenient as it is because they actually feel responsible for protecting the commoners. They hate evil. They don't love good.

Another good comparison is the two premier Arch Mages of the setting. Elminister is a HUGE figure in the setting. He hobnobs with gods. Virtually every single major event in FR has his fingerprints on it. Compare to Modenkainen. What has Mord actually done? He doesn't talk to gods. He doesn't play around with massive, setting changing events. He's just kinda there. Inscrutable. Very powerful, to be sure, but, hardly playing in the same league as Elminister.

Mordenkainen is every bit as powerful as Elminster. This was pretty apparent even in the Dragon articles Ed wrote where he had the two sharing information. The big difference is that Mordenkainen is intentionally Neutral. Unless it impacts him, directly, he isn't likely to get involved. Even if it does involve him directly, why would he risk his own life for minimal gain when some other poor chump is already taking care of it?

 

[Mercule]

Organizations

Pretty much, in Greyhawk, any secret group is probably either evil and wants to kill you or is neutral and trying to maintain the balance. I can't think of anything even vaguely equivalent to the Harpers on the good side.

This. I think I hate the Realms for no other reason than that the Harpers exist. (OK, I have other bones, but that's a really big one.)

I know I've ranted about how tied to the Realms all the adventures are, but, really, maps are maps. Putting PotA between Neverwinter and Waterdeep is no worse than putting the original ToEE between Verbobonc and Greyhawk. I really do want to stab someone every time I see the "Five Factions" mentioned and how they work for plot hooks.

Even the other factions wouldn't be so bad. I just have this vibe about the Harpers like they're the fantasy equivalent of MLM heroes. "And, if you can recruit six of your friends, you earn the title of 'party leader' and are one step closer to that retirement home in Moonshae."

 

[Demetrios1453]

I've enjoyed games in both settings but overall my preference is Greyhawk as I prefer the grittier vibe and political situation it involves-nation state level bickering/ machinations as opposed to a pack of interferring NGOs and less coherent (IMO anyway) history but also because I've more than 30 years of campaigns that have added rich stories to my version of Greyhawk.

I'm not sure that the FR setting's history is less coherent; it's just multipolar instead of monopolar like Greyhawk. You know, that is one way to differentiate the settings though; Greyhawk has a shared history from the Twin Cataclysms through the rise and decline of the Great Kingdom, while the Forgotten Realms' history has disasters and empire-building on a more regional level.