D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[CreamCloud0]

In the final game of one of my DMs epic years long campaign, we fought the lich who was behind most of the campaigns machination. We were all 20th level (3.5) and the lich was built using the Epic Level Handbook. He also has a death knight bodyguard. It was supposed to be epic.

It went like this:
Lich: first round, wins initiative (some epic feat) and casts Mordenkainen's Disjunction. The fight is derailed for over half an hour as everyone who can't make a DC 30 Will save watches their entire collection of magic gear and buff spells disappear and redoes their entire character sheet to account for the loss of permanent magic items like weapons and armor. Then the rest of us get to act but the lich has a fear aura that forces the rogue (me) to flee for 10 minutes. I cannot make a DC 30 Will save as my bonus is now +6. It's roll a 20 or nothing. The lich later hold persons our ranger who also cannot make that save except for a 20. Neither of us do anything for the whole fight. The majority of the combat came from the two wizards using Summon Monsters (celestial elephants) to do trample damage and the cleric healing the fighter round after round so that the fighter could kill the lich with the cleric's magical sword (one of the only magic weapons the group has left).

My grand contribution in the finale? I kept track of intitative. For four hours. My PC showed back up after the fight was over.

That fight changed a lot of my opinions on D&D. About magic items and Christmas trees. About combat math and saves About summons (you know how many attacks 8 celestial elephants get per round?!) and about save or suck/die/cc. A very different Remathilis (literally and figuratively) walked out of that session. But the thing that stuck out to me the most was being in the finale of a decade long campaign my character being taken out before he even got to act against his archenemy.

so, is not the root of the entire issue here the casting/existence of mordenkainen''s disjunction? that it's a Bad Spell? if it hadn't of been cast you wouldn't of all lost 30 minutes recalculating your sheets, with your item buffs you would've been able to make your saves, you wouldn't of been sidelined for 4 hours?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So legendary resistance is a bit of kludge, but at least it somewhat works. I think monsters generally having crap saves is a bigger issue. Like high CR enemies that have no decent wis save are pretty much useless against a party with casters. I recently had a bunch of CR8 assassins to attack the party, but they're humanoids with mighty wis save of +0, so they were totally helpless against hold person. It is rather wild that a second level spell can just totally nullify a high CR foe, and when upcast, multiple. It doesn't even break when the target is attacked, so the characters can just kill them without fear of reprisal.

 

[Zardnaar]

So legendary resistance is a bit of kludge, but at least it somewhat works. I think monsters generally having crap saves is a bigger issue. Like high CR enemies that have no decent wis save are pretty much useless against a party with casters. I recently had a bunch of CR8 assassins to attack the party, but they're humanoids with mighty wis save of +0, so they were totally helpless against hold person. It is rather wild that a second level spell can just totally nullify a high CR foe, and when upcast multiple. It doesn't even break when the target is attacked, so the characters can just kill them without fear of reprisal.

Lol I used assassin as well and bhaalists. Same thing happened all 7 got paralyzed. I redid them at CR13 and buffed the hell out of them.

Remember my chromatic orb thread? Guess what it does especially in that scenario.

CR13 had a +1 wisdom save. It got 1 turn. Legendary saves need to ve more like 6-8 vs 3 or 4.

Twinned hold monster lvl 6. Theres 3 CR 12s out of the fight. Chromatic orb and scorching rays get busted out.

Martials hitting 200 damage a round.

 

[Minigiant]

So legendary resistance is a bit of kludge, but at least it somewhat works. I think monsters generally having crap saves is a bigger issue. Like high CR enemies that have no decent wis save are pretty much useless against a party with casters. I recently had a bunch of CR8 assassins to attack the party, but they're humanoids with mighty wis save of +0, so they were totally helpless against hold person. It is rather wild that a second level spell can just totally nullify a high CR foe, and when upcast multiple. It doesn't even break when the target is attacked, so the characters can just kill them without fear of reprisal.

But that require monsters to have big numbers and we can't have that.

Small numbers good
Big numbers bad

"+10 to wisdom saving throws"
Ugh ugh bad. Burn them.

"Monster has 300 HP then"
Big number is bad

"But something has to go up when you level"
Urrr urrr well urr urr Me create a new RPG that caps at level 10 because me no like the solution to the problem.

(Frankenstein talk is in honor Halloween)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But that require monsters to have big numbers and we can't have that.

Small numbers good
Big numbers bad

"+10 to wisdom saving throws"
Ugh ugh bad. Burn them.

Pointlessly scaling everything a lot like 4e did is bad. But this does not mean numbers should not scale at all. Like if more monsters were just proficient in saves (wis in particular) then that would already help a lot.

But in general, I am beginning to think that the hold type spells should just break if the target is damaged, or at least allow a free saving roll for every hit taken.

 

[Minigiant]

Pointlessly scaling everything a lot like 4e did is bad. But this does not mean numbers should not scale at all. Like if more monsters were just proficient in saves (wis in particular) then that would already help a lot.

But in general, I am beginning to think that the hold type spells should just break if the target is damaged, or at least allow a free saving roll for every hit taken.

I agree this shouldn't be a crazy lover bonus like in 4E or pf2.

But just like PCS will take resilient con or warcaster in order to bump up the con saves you would think that high level monsters and epic challenging bosses would also have a bunch of high saves via rerolls or in the very basic sense Proficiency in saving throws.

I mean ancient dragons and liches who are known for their incredible intellect should be proficient in all of the mental savings growth plus the physical ones that match their archetype like Constitution (undead) or strength (dragons).

I mean it's common sense you should not be able to easily mentally disable a higher level spellcaster who relies on high mental stats as a weaker spellcasting yourself.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah i prefer the newer hold spelks vs say 3E.

Being immune to them is basic 101 at higher levels though. Level 7+ cleric or ring will generally do it.

I use hold spells on PCs had 3 in one encounter last week. The DCs 12-14 and theyre all buffed and have appropriate defenses. 1-2 failed their saves for a round or 2. Good for tension building and theyre level 12 and the CR2s have murder aura ability.

I list a level 19 wizard to a troll shaman in 2E. Clone spell derp.

You aren't describing a net improvement though because you leave out the lost good and dub the mechanical hook for that good as some kind of vaguely implied negative or null impact. The players having a desire to get things like that ring of free action (or whatever) provides positive pressure for them to reach a goal of finding/buying those kinds of things by not recklessly expending sometimes pricey resources in a way that might require pullback & rest time where treasure might go away from the dungeon when they are already digging a hole with reckless need for consimt

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Pointlessly scaling everything a lot like 4e did is bad. But this does not mean numbers should not scale at all. Like if more monsters were just proficient in saves (wis in particular) then that would already help a lot.

But in general, I am beginning to think that the hold type spells should just break if the target is damaged, or at least allow a free saving roll for every hit taken.

Was it pointless?

Was it really?

Because it seems to me that we're running into the precise problems caused by having a system that does not scale properly. Saving throws simply don't grow, and that was one of the only criticisms you'd ever hear of 5e in its first like five years.

Maybe the scaling isn't as pointless as you think it is.

 

[tetrasodium]

... did you read the first 9 words of that line and then stop? 'Cause that is what the rest of that paragraph is talking about.

No, although I could have been more clear. Too often this particular tangent gets framed as a zero sum caricatureized matter of "doing nothing is boring" vrs "playing the game [with friends] is fun" with no nuance that allows for different aspects of play to factor in individually or be noted as a thing too important to lose simply to avoid the consequence that provides scaffolding of incentive for that fun aspect.

I just felt like the fun part deserved to get elaborated on with some additional details rather than being left to personal interpretation because that whole missing pillar of gameplay was important to my enjoyment. I changed a though to indeed to be a bit more clear of that.

 

[Remathilis]

so, is not the root of the entire issue here the casting/existence of mordenkainen''s disjunction? that it's a Bad Spell? if it hadn't of been cast you wouldn't of all lost 30 minutes recalculating your sheets, with your item buffs you would've been able to make your saves, you wouldn't of been sidelined for 4 hours?

It exposed to me a whole bunch of issues I was only vaguely aware of. The disparity between good and bad save tracks. Disjunction as a bad spell, especially with 3.5 using magical items to prop up the math. The ability of control magic being able to take players out of whole sessions. The length of time multiple summons add to 2 round. The wonky nature of high level play etc. Let's just say I was very interested in what 4e was selling in the Wizards Presents books after that night.