D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

Was it pointless?

Was it really?

Because it seems to me that we're running into the precise problems caused by having a system that does not scale properly. Saving throws simply don't grow, and that was one of the only criticisms you'd ever hear of 5e in its first like five years.

Maybe the scaling isn't as pointless as you think it is.

Yes, it was pointless in the degree it happened and counterproductive as as monsters very quickly scaled past usability an they needed to have weird math in multi stage monster rules as kludge to counter it (ie. minion version of same monster having higher attack bonus than the normal version etc.)

It also produced weirdness where mid level characters were already basically experts at everything as their non-proficient skills kept wildly scaling.
 

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Was it pointless?

Was it really?
Actually the 4e scaling of to hit and defenses was pointless.

Because 4e had better and more balanced scaling elsewhere (powers, rituals, HP, damage, feats)

The issue is 5e went back to designing based on feels and vibes without being clear on what the feels and vibes of anything is... again.

We decided what Hold Person was supposed to look without we decided Hold Person is supposed to play.
 

Multistage monsters got noted earlier . Overall they are a depressingly blunt and terrible kludge of a bandaid trying to paper over the fact that with AoOs/OAs made so irrelivant as to be all but removed in normal play that martials and mooks are no longer sticky or threatening enough to provide the zone of control/area denial function that organically allowed optimal choices other than focus fire on the bbeg first last & always.
 

PCs getting taken out of action by all-or-nothing control spells was never any fun, but at least in early editions like B/X or AD&D the effects did not usually take up much real session time due to faster combat rounds. Players generally had fewer options and fewer decisions to make. Combat rounds could pass quickly if the dice gods frowned on both players and DM, with all sides whiffing repeatedly.

Nowadays combat seems to take much longer to play out fewer rounds, so being left out lasts longer in real time. Scarce play time is generally more valuable to busy adults than it is to kids or teens, so I can understand why people don’t want to waste a big chunk of a session cooling their heels in a magical penalty box.
 

Interesting that the Civilization games came up in this conversation. Turn-based 4X strategy games for desktop PCs would not seem to share many design issues with tabletop RPGs, but that series has seen a kind of arms race between the game designers and certain subsets of hard core players who keep finding exploits or novel strategies that allow them to beat the game in ways the designers did not anticipate. Other game series have similar issues.

In the 2010s I played lots of Civ V, and I learned a lot by lurking on the forums at CivFanatics and (to a lesser extent) Steam. There was lots of discussion of “wide” strategies (claiming lots of territory with small cities and minimal cheap infrastructure) vs. “tall” strategies (building up a few advanced but expensive cities), and how different editions of the game encouraged or discouraged these strategies.

Many players don’t care much about the actual victory conditions. Some play in sandbox mode, or play only the early stages of the game (widely considered to be the most fun) before quitting and starting a new game once victory seems assured. Other players approach Civ like chess grand masters, interested only in playing to win with the fewest moves on the hardest mode. I preferred playing on a slightly easier mode than necessary, so I could mess around with historical accuracy, counterfactuals, and other fun approaches that were not 100% optimized.

In hard mode the rival NPC civilizations (nicknamed “AIs” in the jargon of the CivFanatics forums 😁) did not get to use better tactics or strategy, they just got to “cheat” by getting a bunch of bonus stuff at the start. Rather than program tougher computer opponents for the human players, the game designers just gave the AI factions a big head start. There were modders in the fan community who managed to program smarter AI for their Steam mods, so presumably the professionals could have done it too.

The only way to win consistently on hard mode was to exploit the general incompetence of the AI whenever it tried to fight wars or maneuver troops on a one-unit-per-tile (1UPT) map, as seen in classic war games. Skilled hard mode players learned to completely ignore the game’s intended focus on developing culture by building great cities full of World Wonders. Instead they played as the Huns or Mongols, and burned the world to the ground because the computer did not know how to fight back.

Years earlier, players of Civ I and II had developed a remarkably similar strategy called “Infinite City Sprawl” (ICS), in which the player spammed the map with crummy little cities that just pumped out cannon fodder troops for human waves and zerg rushes. Instead of switching to a modern but expensive form of government like Communism or Democracy as intended, ICS players would keep the primitive but cheap Despotism through the whole game.

The designers of Civ III nerfed ICS by hitting distant cities, far from their capital at the edge of the empire, with crippling levels of waste and corruption. This had the unintended consequence of wrecking all large empires, especially overseas empires. Civ III turned out to be one of the less popular entries in the franchise, while its successor Civ IV was widely considered to be a return to form, and is a fan favorite to this day.

Civ V tried to make “tall” empires with few cities more competitive by punishing “wide” empires with arbitrary, nonsensical penalties that scaled up as empires grew. This also meant punishing the core gameplay loop of the very same 4X genre which the series had once pioneered. Civ III & IV had an issue dubbed “Stack of Death (or Doom)” - the AIs built huge, unrealistic stacks of troops. 1UPT was meant to stop that, but unfortunately nobody remembered to teach the AI how to actually fight a war... 😵‍💫

Some of the discussions on CivFanatics remind me of the D&D Edition Wars. Players will naturally develop new play styles, and do surprising things with a game if the rules provide an incentive. Designers need to decide what their game is really about, and figure out how to reward the kind of play they want to see in a fun way.

EDIT: fixed minor formatting issue
 
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Multistage monsters got noted earlier . Overall they are a depressingly blunt and terrible kludge of a bandaid trying to paper over the fact that with AoOs/OAs made so irrelivant as to be all but removed in normal play that martials and mooks are no longer sticky or threatening enough to provide the zone of control/area denial function that organically allowed optimal choices other than focus fire on the bbeg first last & always.


It's funny how the new UA's introduce the spirit Barbarian and cavalier fighter who both come with 4e style marks.

Part of me always felt that D&D was missing and Engage action where you couldn't just simply choose to lock yourself in combat with one individual and force them to not be able to move away from you unless they get several attacks in their back. This would eliminate the real need for opportunity attacks and force groups to bring warriors and tough experts/priests to counter-engage boss monsters who aim to swoop on the casters.

The vampire mist-teleports on the cleric and engages them. Now the cleric can't use control spells or they proactively get claw + blood drained. So the fighter/paladin/barb/monk/ranger has to shoulder tackle the vampire off the cleric like the movies for the cleric to cast. And now 2 allies instead of 0 are in the zone of the wizard/sorc/lock/Bard's AOE control spell.
 

Yes, it was pointless in the degree it happened and counterproductive as as monsters very quickly scaled past usability an they needed to have weird math in multi stage monster rules as kludge to counter it (ie. minion version of same monster having higher attack bonus than the normal version etc.)

It also produced weirdness where mid level characters were already basically experts at everything as their non-proficient skills kept wildly scaling.
So...a +7 bonus (level 14-15 is mid-level) is now "wildly scaling"?

But 5e's stuff doesn't "wildly scale".

Kinda strange how that works...
 

Actually the 4e scaling of to hit and defenses was pointless.

Because 4e had better and more balanced scaling elsewhere (powers, rituals, HP, damage, feats)

The issue is 5e went back to designing based on feels and vibes without being clear on what the feels and vibes of anything is... again.

We decided what Hold Person was supposed to look without we decided Hold Person is supposed to play.
I disagree, but I should try to sleep. If you care for a more full defense of that scaling, I can present it later.
 

I'm going to push back on this a bit. IMO, if a "best" strategy is not fun, then it is not the best strategy!
But wouldn't it be a better design if you managed to have the best strategies also being the most fun to play? And just like there is no guarantee that players find the best strategies, nor that they find the most fun strategy. Maybe they stumble upon something that works, and realize it's unfun,but how are the supposed to discover that the worse options will be more fun in play? Once you know certain tactics or abilities work well, it's hard to consider the worse options, because they look worse, no reason to believe that they could somehow be more fun.
Only in the aggregate of something like a forum where gamers of different gaming groups meet and exchange their experience they might discover ways to make the game more fun.

Especially since it might require an understanding between player and GM that the opposition will be built around the players not using the best options - if not, they might just experience more character deaths, failed adventures or TPKs because the DM - after having seen what they can do once, or because he saw the same potential - expects them to hide in Secure Shelters and strip off legendary resistance to stun-lock the big bosses or whatever the game in question has as its most effectice strategy.
 

I disagree, but I should try to sleep. If you care for a more full defense of that scaling, I can present it later.
4e's Hit/Defense scaling was too high.
5e's Save/DC was too slow because it handed out proficiency and expertise too infrequently.

Basically 5e need to give PCs and monsters a 3rd Save proficiency in Tier 3. And a 4th in Tier 4. And Solo boss monsters get one more.

4e's half level bonus of +10 over 20 levels to everything was too much. Because it just became a level check. It didn't add much because you typically didn't run monsters more that 4 levels away. So it's just -2 to +2.. Really you could play 4e without the level bonus. It's just a lot of math to recalculate everything.

And all it did was push the numbers up more to the point that you needed to get saving throw feats to fill up the ever-increasing bonuses so if you had a slower number progression you could eliminate the feat bonus as well.

5e's proficiency is slightly too slow. +2 to +6 is almost alright. But it only offers 4 bumps for progression. Not enough to feel it nor really matter. And for saving throws...

Player Characters only got proficiency in 2 saves. And most monsters in 2014 got NONE.

I mean 5.5e missed an easy fix while being backwards compatible. Give most nonfullcasters and most high CR monsters proficiency with saving throws. And sometimes expertise in saving throws.
 
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