D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

I'd prefer upcasting remain, rather than the old as-you-level-the-spell-levels-too. It's just that leveled spells, as a limited resource should do more damage than they do now. Cantrip damage isn't too terribly bad, but that 8d6 fireball (28 ave.) at 5th level will just barely kill a 2014 bugbear (and not a 2024 one) . Back in older editions, dropping a 5d6 fireball (at 5th level) would kill a ~4 HD monster - basically an ogre (CR 2 nowadays, with 59 hp for the 2014 version and 68 now). Sadly, upleveling as it stands now is just worst as monster HP rapidly outpace spell damage output.

For me, spells should be a vote of "I want to end this monster right now" (or, "let's thin the herd so we can focus on the dangerous stuff"). They're limited resource, and as long as the DM isn't allowing 5MWD, their use should be something the spellcaster only drops after assessing the risk is too great to letting the martials beat it down. Most of the time, I'd rather see the spellcasters using combat cantrips, and only pulling out the "big guns" when things get desperate. But when those big guns go off, it should be noticeable and spectacular - not a drop in the bucket.

It sure feels like that was how 1e-2e handled it, but was lost by time 3E rolled around.

Started noticing fireball being underwhelming in 3.5. It was better in 3.0.

That wasnt opportunity cost as it was a "fun" spell people used regardless.

Its funny how people push the auto scaling danage spelks are broken angel. Last PHB thay had a powerful one was 1989. Last "core" book was 1991.
 

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Started noticing fireball being underwhelming in 3.5. It was better in 3.0.

That wasnt opportunity cost as it was a "fun" spell people used regardless.

Its funny how people push the auto scaling danage spelks are broken angel. Last PHB thay had a powerful one was 1989. Last "core" book was 1991.
Sure, but that's because 3e (regardless of version) made SoS/SoD spells stupidly OP.
 

Sure, but that's because 3e (regardless of version) made SoS/SoD spells stupidly OP.
It was also hit point inflation.

3.0 they added ability scores to 2E monsters for the most part.

3.5 was really the 1st time they redid them from scratch.

3.0,4E,5E flaws they essentially rebuilt the game from the ground up. That was always gonna create problems.
 

It was also hit point inflation.

3.0 they added ability scores to 2E monsters for the most part.

3.5 was really the 1st time they redid them from scratch.

3.0,4E,5E flaws they essentially rebuilt the game from the ground up. That was always gonna create problems.
I mean, they kind of had to rebuild the game from the ground up when WotC was doing 3rd edition. You yourself have more than once admitted that the 2e engine, as much as you approve of many things it contains, was cumbersome, disorganized, and unnecessarily difficult to use.

Then, when 3e proved to be absolutely riddled with mechanical flaws, well...I mean they kept most of the chassis intact, but yes, they rebuilt most of the things on it. Like taking the existing airframe of a military jet and re-designing the engine, radar, cockpit, etc. It's still, technically, the same structure...but the guts, despite fitting into the same space, are not the same.

I disagree about 5e though. It's very, very clearly a modified version of 3e. Like that is very much what its mechanics are. It is a more extensively modified version of 3e than PF1e was, with an eye toward being ever-so-slightly simpler, kinda-sorta numerically capped in certain ways, and moderately less "casters rule, warriors drool". 90%+ of what is in 5e is specifically built from something in 3e.
 

I disagree about 5e though. It's very, very clearly a modified version of 3e. Like that is very much what its mechanics are. It is a more extensively modified version of 3e than PF1e was, with an eye toward being ever-so-slightly simpler, kinda-sorta numerically capped in certain ways, and moderately less "casters rule, warriors drool". 90%+ of what is in 5e is specifically built from something in 3e.
Equally it's a modified version of 4e. Bounded accuracy; the lack of scaling spells; classes with "sub-classes"; its action economy; much of its approach to weapons and armour; etc, etc, etc.
 

BA works. The flaw was not adhering to it
No the flaw was the bounds decided on were too narrow.
Thus you could not adhere to BA and have a sense of progression in a level based game.

If your numbers don't go up when you level up, leveling up is diminished as a reward. Tall or wide you have to make gains. But the bounds were too narrow. So small increasing numbers got added together...

So some things went up a lot and some things didn't go up at all. And kaboom. Now boss monsters suck.
 

Perhaps the solution is to go back to Old School saves that aren't tied to ability scores directly.
  • Fortitude
  • Reflex
  • Will
  • Combat
  • Magic

They increase based on class or monster type. Not a Number + Ability mod + Level bonus formula. Maybe the ability bonus is just +1 if you have a score of 15 or more. So no God stat Dexterity.

  • Fortitude (+1 for 15 or more Str or Con)
  • Reflex (+1 for 15 or more Dex or Int)
  • Will (+1 for 15 or more Wis or Cha)
  • Combat (+1 for 15 or more Str or Dex or Con)
  • Magic (+1 for 15 or more Int or Wis or Cha)
This way you can just have the Balor have +15 to Will saves
 

Equally it's a modified version of 4e. Bounded accuracy; the lack of scaling spells; classes with "sub-classes"; its action economy; much of its approach to weapons and armour; etc, etc, etc.
Is it?

Subclasses already existed in PF1e as "archetypes", which themselves grew out of 3e's "Alternative Class Features" and the like. They're just prepackaged, something that runs through almost the entirety of 5e (e.g. Specialties were going to work that way, but had to be abandoned because they finally realized Specialties were a bad idea.)

No idea what you mean by "lack of scaling spells". 5e is full of spells that scale? And I'm not talking cantrips. Upcasting is a thing in 5e, which has literally no equivalent in 4e, but was in fact something you could often do in 3e.

The action economy is nearly identical between 3e, 4e, and 5e...and where 5e differs, it differs from both of them equally. 3e called them Standard, Swift, and Move actions. 4e called them Standard, Minor, and Move actions. 5e calls them Actions, Bonus Actions, and movement (not described as an action, but still functionally one). If anything, this is a point where 5e actually does differ from the previous two games more than those two resemble each other: in both 3e and 4e, you had to spend your movement all at once, and couldn't do it "within" an action unless that action specifically merged your Standard and Move actions (e.g. Bull Rush). In 5e, your movement is something you just have at all times during your turn, and you can use it as you like. This, incidentally, was one of the things I was specifically thinking of when I said that the "chassis" remained more or less the same.

No idea where you're coming from with the weapons and armor thing. 5e weapons are vastly more like 3e weapons. They have no tags. They have precious few special features, essentially all of which were in 3e, albeit sometimes done differently (e.g. "finesse" was a character feature in 3e, as opposed to a weapon property in 5e. It didn't exist in 4e--that was handled by the "Light Blade" weapon group, which as said, doesn't exist in 5e.) This is one of the few areas where I can speak pretty authoritatively, mostly because I attempted to reverse-engineer the weapon construction rules used to make 4e weapons. I think I have something that is at least more or less what the designers were doing. It's a little bit of a cheat--glossing over a couple unusual exceptions and having to grant certain seemingly-valuable properties as being "free" if specific other properties are present--but given at least some of these weapons were apparently notorious in the 4e community for being crap-awful trash (e.g. the ordinary club).

4e weapons genuinely have much more design in them than 5e ones do. It's quite clear to me that 5e went back to the 3e weapon table, slimmed it down, and gave a very slight nod to certain 4e ideas, without paying very careful attention to the details. That's why the 5.0 trident is a harder-to-use (martial vs simple), heavier (4 lb vs 3 lb), more expensive (5 gp vs 1 gp) spear...with otherwise completely identical stats. There is never any reason to use a trident in 5.0 when you could use a spear. It's worth noting, making the trident actually better than the spear is one of the changes 5.5e implemented (it now has one better damage die, d8/d10 versatile, and a different mastery property). And, on that subject, Mastery Properties are quite clearly a design attempting to reconstruct the 4e weapon groups and their soft association with particular weapon properties (e.g. axes have Brutal N, swords have better accuracy, etc.), just comparatively clumsy, because they had to bolt it on after the fact rather than having the notion baked into the system from the start.

I'm about 90% finished with those aforementioned build-your-own weapons rules, incidentally. They should be usable even with 5.5e, though you probably would want to be careful about including both these rules and Mastery Properties, since those didn't exist when I started designing these rules.
 

No the flaw was the bounds decided on were too narrow.
Thus you could not adhere to BA and have a sense of progression in a level based game.

If your numbers don't go up when you level up, leveling up is diminished as a reward. Tall or wide you have to make gains. But the bounds were too narrow. So small increasing numbers got added together...

So some things went up a lot and some things didn't go up at all. And kaboom. Now boss monsters suck.
One of 5e's greatest problems is overcorrection. (Which, in fairness, one can argue that that was a great problem of 4e as well. Not of 3e though.)

In this particular case, they wanted to correct for both 3e's ridiculous height of bonuses (e.g. CL stacking) and 4e's breadth of bonuses (which, I admit, was an issue)...but they produced something where, as you say, there is nearly no scaling in the first place, which robs things of the feeling of progression. It turns out, those alleged "treadmills" actually did serve a function, and trying to destroy them utterly wasn't necessarily the wisest design option. Nor was having your weapon of first resort also be your weapon of last resort (Advantage/Disadvantage) when it doesn't stack.

Personally, what I think this means is that we need to drill down on how to demonstrate to the players that they have, in fact, "scaled up". Break the treadmill, not by removing the slope, but by making it so players can SEE that they're on a higher point now than they used to be. I don't think 5e's approach is quite right, but it has (again) a kernel of a good idea that can be teased out. Namely: We need monsters that are distinctive to tiers of play. Things that you genuinely "grow out of", and things you genuinely "grow into". Stuff that really, truly is too hard to fight when you're level 3 or 4, unless you've got some miracle--both because that's realistic (there are almost always things too strong for any given combatant!), and because that sets signposts.

Something like 2/3 of 4e's scaling, rather than half, plus progression signposts like this. Clear, identifiable, graspable things that you can say "Look! We did it! We beat <X>!" or "Wow, we just cleared out a room full of <Y> without breaking a sweat, we really have gone far." Non-combat signposts should also get attention, but they're best handled by advising GMs on how to construct them well, rather than trying to artificially create universal ones, which wouldn't fly.
 

No the flaw was the bounds decided on were too narrow.
Thus you could not adhere to BA and have a sense of progression in a level based game.

If your numbers don't go up when you level up, leveling up is diminished as a reward. Tall or wide you have to make gains. But the bounds were too narrow. So small increasing numbers got added together...

So some things went up a lot and some things didn't go up at all. And kaboom. Now boss monsters suck.
The games DC runs from 5 to 30. Where would you have them stop?

I disagree with your assessment. The game did not need +5 on ability modifiers. There are plenty of incremental benefits that could be provided to classes or abilities without the standard +1 +2, but it requires creativity.
 
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