Military tactics vs. high-level spellcasters

[scholz]

I guess I am not as impressed by the wizards as most.
Lets say 20 wizards - 15th level? or are we talking higher?
Each would get around 25 spells of significant size (3rd level or higher).
Should we say 20% of those are defensive/spying/movement?
(Pretty conservative I would say)
So that is 400 3rd or higher level offensive spells per day.
Lets assume that groups of 20 soldiers are getting hit by every spell.
That equals 8000 soldiers hit by the spells.
So then if every spell killed youd have 2000 left to fight the 500 soldiers.

That is assuming a pretty tight spacing
Assume the soldiers keep 5 feet between them
SOSOSOSOSOSO
OOOOOOOOOOOO
SOSOSOSOSOSO
OOOOOOOOOOO
SOSOSOSOSOS0
OOOOOOOOOOO
SOSOSOSOSOSO
OOOOOOOOOOOO

With that pretty close formation, a fireball would only get 13. And that would be basically running up a street with no cover. But lets assume that in the chaos of war, the soldiers clump somewhat tighter than that, so 20 hits per spell.

Then we add in some saving throws (assume 35pt damage from fireballs) average HPS for 3 level fighters (20) Average DC 17 (assume 18 Int). Maybe 2 or 3 make those save each spell (times 400 = another 1000 soldiers surviving). Assume the higher damage spells even ought with the higher level fighters.

So now we are looking at 3000 vs 500 (not too bad of odds).

Of course, this is assuming none of the Wizards are in any danger this whole time. With 500 archers, you might get at least a few wizards taken out, even from behing cover.

This is assuming that all the wizards are fighting, which I got to tell you. I make it to 10th level and my boss tells me to fight 10000 soldiers, I might be saying T-Port if things started to look bad, just me. Not to mention, you might not want all of your wizards awake at the same time, since any night attack could spoil everything.

Once it gets to the actual melee, soldiers vs wizards. it doesn't matter how may AOE or any other spells other than exit spells, the soldiers will win.

Now, assuming proper preparation, items, time, control of the environment. Sure 20 15th level wizards could wreak havoc on an army of any size. But put the two a mile apart, with little prep time, and not tonnes of magic items. I think sheer numbers will do the trick.

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

I agree that the best offense would involve something quick and as decisive as possible.

If the keep/location is the target, destroying it, as well as its notoriety as a place to form alliances is key. It sounded in the details as if the fortress being used as a nest of opposition was the problem, rather than the wizards; it wasn't a mission assigned as 'kill these 20 leaders' as much as 'destroy this base/symbol they rally around'.

Get in, do as much damage as quick as possible. Keep up constant pressure so the spellcasters do not get rest; stagger your attacks so there's no particular pattern, don't go every four hours on the hour. Go three hours, and then the next two hours, and then one four hours, etc.

While doing that, find a way in. If the wizards are loading up on bombs and a weapons-loadout, to use modern terms, they're not loading up on detection gear.

I also agree with the idea of shooting disease/filth into the city. Wizard spells are not good at combatting illness. Even if all they get are the sniffles and the inability to sleep and concentrate, you're doing well.

I also like the idea of destroying as you go. You cut out incentive to stay and rebuild.

Again: you need to figure out what your priorities are. The defense has it relatively easy. The key to winning is to follow your strategy, and deny your enemy the ability to implement his.

For some reason, I'm reminded of the Star Trek ep where Data plays the video game against the egotistic master of it. He finally defeated him by NOT going for the win, but merely playing to stop his opponent.

 

[Slife]

You don't. Short of incredibly stupid actions on the part of the wizards, (unlikely, with int as their prime stat), you aren't going to be able to win - any tactic you can think up will already have been anticipated by the wizards you're attacking.

And mid-high level wizards? Simulacrum, Control Weather, and Cloudkill are going to be very difficult to deal with. Especially if the wizards have time to set up defenses (and, if the castle is their home base, it's going to have all sorts of magical traps)

 

[jodyjohnson]

Not that it matters in this scenario but I'd like to see some Star Wars-esque elements.

Gungans vs. Driod army -- giant force shield generators making the superior firepower useless until short range

Hoth shield generator -- base impervious to bombardment from space
Endor shield generator -- ditto

Ion cannon -- long range anti-magic beam nullifies enemy Star Destroyers/Wizards.

Each possible with magic and also big enough not to be used by small band of adventurers.

Basically made up stuff that forces military engagements into more typical and possibly dramatic scenes.

Not to mention the bolt reflecting and deflecting powers of a jedi lightsaber (bouncing fireball back on their caster?).

 

[Doghead Thirteen]

The attacking general: get every trebuchet he can and bombard the target into a pile of battered rocks. Let's see these spellcasters survive their castle falling on their heads!

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

This tactic is ultimately flawed. The enemy has a much faster decision-loop and higher mobility. They will wait until you are farther from home than destination then destroy your home behind you forcing you to turn back on the defensive yourself. When you do they will simply avoid your army. With D&D and its leveled nature as a basis the nation has too much to defend and cannot sufficiently threaten the high-level threat.

They are already enemies, they will have you under observation and will know preparations of that volume are being made. They will respond by preparing to move non-expendable assets(of which theirs are far less and far more mobile) and avoiding overly risky initial assaults. Once the force has left its home unguarded that home will be utterly destroyed long before the now marching army can return to defend it. Even assuming a seige is carried out and is succesful in destroying the castle and slaughtering its inhabitants those will be the expendable inhabitants and resources. Meanwhile in the process the high-level wizards will inflict non-sustainable casualties that will cripple your future ability to defend yourself. In a short time the nation that tries this tactic will have ceased to exist.

In short any conventional threat of this sort is just plain ed. It's like the D&D version of Napoleon's Russian Invasion.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Wizards eh?

Marching an army won't work: Scry, Fly, Invisibility, Fireball, etc.
Flying could work, especially on griffins. But beware the mage who can control winds or weather. (not a wizard spell, but theres bound to be an oddball among them)
Burrowing somewhat 'safer' than marching, in that its less likely that you will get caught. But if (and when) you get caught, Cloudkill, Solidfog, Incendiary Cloud, etc will kill everyone.

And beware the Prismatic anything.

 

[ruleslawyer]

SNIP

You're missing the basic point: It's not a single barrage of spells, but rather everything the wizards can do over the entire time the army is marching on the fortress.

 

[Delta]

Have hundreds of archers on standby to shoot the source of any spell. Having training drills where they try to hit fireball beads right as they come out of the wizard's hand? *grin*

Eek, hope you don't make the campaign plot turn on whether that's a feasible D&D tactic. Even if it were, probably wizards are smart enough to switch tactics after the first time and use any other AOE spell.

 

[silentspace]

Take a lesson from the real world - Vietnam.

Break up into small guerrilla forces. Don't siege the castle. Rather, use hit and run tactics. Disrupt the supply chain. Win over the hearts and minds of the citizenry (We're regular people, just like you, not some super-powered, greedy, corrupt wizards!) Focus on injuring the mooks, forcing them to retreat to heal, rather than facing them in a direct battle. Etc.

But don't engage them head-on! Just like in Vietnam, that would be a recipe for disaster.