Min/Maxed Sorcerer questions
- Thread starter mooby
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Mr Fidgit
First Post
i think elves are a good choice for the added weapon proficiencies (sword and bow)
between gnomes and humans, it's a toss-up for me. humans do have an extra feat, but they also get more skill points (great for a class with only 2 (+Int mod) per level). gnomes do have the cantrips (and low light vision, bonuses to some skills and saves...) and more hit points (+2 Con).
which do you think would be more fun to play? or does it matter?
as far as spells, that's tough too. some people like to create a sorcerer with a thematic spell list (all summoning-type spells, all fire spells, etc.). others may prefer an all purpose caster, starting with one offensive and one defensive spell (usually magic missile and mage armor) as first level spells
if you create a sorcerer with a 'theme', you could add some feats to match:
fire spells - bloodline of fire feat (FRCS)
summoner - augment summoning (MoF)
illusions - spell focus: illusion (and definately take the shadow conjuration and evocation spells at higher levels - which would 'expand' your spell list by mimicing all sorts of spells...)
just some things to ponder...
between gnomes and humans, it's a toss-up for me. humans do have an extra feat, but they also get more skill points (great for a class with only 2 (+Int mod) per level). gnomes do have the cantrips (and low light vision, bonuses to some skills and saves...) and more hit points (+2 Con).
which do you think would be more fun to play? or does it matter?
as far as spells, that's tough too. some people like to create a sorcerer with a thematic spell list (all summoning-type spells, all fire spells, etc.). others may prefer an all purpose caster, starting with one offensive and one defensive spell (usually magic missile and mage armor) as first level spells
if you create a sorcerer with a 'theme', you could add some feats to match:
fire spells - bloodline of fire feat (FRCS)
summoner - augment summoning (MoF)
illusions - spell focus: illusion (and definately take the shadow conjuration and evocation spells at higher levels - which would 'expand' your spell list by mimicing all sorts of spells...)
just some things to ponder...
Augment Summoning is also listed in Tome and Blood, in case one's DM doesn't like using FR material.
As for Bloodline of Fire -- consider also getting Elemental Substitution: Fire (T&B). That extends your innate benefits (from the Bloodline feat) to every elemental-damage-descriptor spell you have! Melf's Acid Arrow ... ? No, Melf's Fiery Napalm Arrow ... ! Not even a human can get both Bloodline and Substitution at first level, since you need to know another metamagic before you can learn Substitution, so that would be a goal for 3d or 6th level (depending on if someone is, respectively, human or not human).
Other good races for Sorceror would be Aasimar (either in the FRCS, or interpolated from the DMG and MM) for their +2 Charisma; anything Half-Celestial, for the +4 Charisma; or, in sufficiently-levelled campaigns, a Unicorn, for the +14 (!!!) Charisma). By literal rules, the Unicorn would have to cast Still spells constantly.
However, by reasonable rules -- playing in the *spirit* of the rules, rather than solely by the absolute letter -- since Unicorns are sentient and (according to the DMG) suitable PC material in the right campaign, IMO they would have unicorn-specific means of dealign with somatic components (a little jig on all four hooves; drawing a glowing, possibly complex sigil or glyph in the air with their horn, etc). And for them, a form with HANDS ... woudl be akin to a human spellcaster being changed into a dog: no more spellcasting.
As for Bloodline of Fire -- consider also getting Elemental Substitution: Fire (T&B). That extends your innate benefits (from the Bloodline feat) to every elemental-damage-descriptor spell you have! Melf's Acid Arrow ... ? No, Melf's Fiery Napalm Arrow ... ! Not even a human can get both Bloodline and Substitution at first level, since you need to know another metamagic before you can learn Substitution, so that would be a goal for 3d or 6th level (depending on if someone is, respectively, human or not human).
Other good races for Sorceror would be Aasimar (either in the FRCS, or interpolated from the DMG and MM) for their +2 Charisma; anything Half-Celestial, for the +4 Charisma; or, in sufficiently-levelled campaigns, a Unicorn, for the +14 (!!!) Charisma). By literal rules, the Unicorn would have to cast Still spells constantly.
However, by reasonable rules -- playing in the *spirit* of the rules, rather than solely by the absolute letter -- since Unicorns are sentient and (according to the DMG) suitable PC material in the right campaign, IMO they would have unicorn-specific means of dealign with somatic components (a little jig on all four hooves; drawing a glowing, possibly complex sigil or glyph in the air with their horn, etc). And for them, a form with HANDS ... woudl be akin to a human spellcaster being changed into a dog: no more spellcasting.
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Luis Figoo
First Post
Here are some of my suggestions
Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 or 7/As you wish X
MotAO is from T&B. It requires Arcane Preparation, some meta magic feat and cooperative spell. Using a human, you can qualify at 4th level. At 7th level you get most of what the class offers. If however you continue past epic levels, you may wish to complete the full 10 level progression
Archmage (FRCS) or War wizard of Cormyr (MoF) might be good picks to finsh off the class
Monk is good because it gives evasion and a AC wisdom bonus but its no biggie if you replace it with a sorcerer level
MotAO is good because it allows you to pull half your level in spells from the spell pool. These can be any spells you wish. This PrC alone gives you versatility (something missing in a lot of sorcerer builds). The half level limitation balances it but you should find the limit suffcient for most cases (divinations, protections, etc)
Featwise i tend towards Spell Focus/Spell Penetration/Improved Initiative/Leadership/Meta magics (Subsitution especially). Skip the item creation feats if possible. You may be able to offload item creation feats to your cohort if you are allowed by your DM to take leadership.
Spell penetration and its Greater version aren't needed until you get pretty high in levels (15th/18th feat slots). Once there, i would consider it almost critical.
For Spell Focus, here are the common ones for a battle mage
Transmutation - The school of the one shot kill spells. With greater Spell Penetration, this allows you to kill off major opposition in the first round (Pit Fiends etc). This also covers your Fort Based saves
Charm/Enchantment - This allows you to reduce the enemy's forces by a few while reinforcing your own. It is also a one shot kill spell for the right circumstances. However, a lot of monster types are immune to these spells, plus a simple protection from evil (1st level) kills it. This covers your will saves.
Evocation - The blasting spells. This allows you to take out large numbers of monsters or weaken things that would otherwise be immune to your other spells. These cover your reflex saves.
As for the other schools i'm not a great fan of those so i'll ignore them for this discussion.
Alot of PrCs give bonus Metagmagic slots so use those and save your 1/3 level feat slots for general feats. Think about Subdual subsitution. This will allow you to fireball in town without killing anyone and also covers things such as hold person when you need to capture someone. To ensure you can kill stuff, think about Energy Subsitution (Sonic). Very few things protect against sonic attacks and fewer monsters still have resistance towards it. Empower is also a good choice, as is heighten. Both allows you to reuse your lower level spells for greater damage or higher save DCs. Empower also breaks a lot of spells
For your spell list always remember this - Plan your entire spell list up to 9th level spells. This is very important to prevent redunancy in spell known selection
Also ask youself these questions. Would it be better served to use a magic item? Would the spell be much much better with a higher casting level than through items? Is it DC based? Does it Ignore SR and Saves (this is very good for a sorcerer)? Does it hit another save type (Ref/Will/Fort) in which i'm lacking in?
Mage Armor is a poor man's bracers of Armor. Once you find those, you'll find that you've wasted one of your known spell slots. Truestrike doesn't get any benefit at all from higher casting levels. It would be better off in wands. Unless you've gotten empower as your metamagic feat, the same applies to buff spells. They would work almost as well as casted in wand form
Also look at ignored spells like wind wall (this is an archer's bane) and always have haste, fly and teleport in your spell list. These 3 are among the must haves IMO. Also if you have taken empower, always take eagle's splendor (T&B) and is at all possible, cat's grace (initiative) and endurance (hp). A multiple empowered buff is much more effective at high levels than a non epic ehancement item and with a sorcerer's spell slots you can rebuff (perhaps dropping 1 of the multiple empowers) without too much problem after a disjunction
Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 or 7/As you wish X
MotAO is from T&B. It requires Arcane Preparation, some meta magic feat and cooperative spell. Using a human, you can qualify at 4th level. At 7th level you get most of what the class offers. If however you continue past epic levels, you may wish to complete the full 10 level progression
Archmage (FRCS) or War wizard of Cormyr (MoF) might be good picks to finsh off the class
Monk is good because it gives evasion and a AC wisdom bonus but its no biggie if you replace it with a sorcerer level
MotAO is good because it allows you to pull half your level in spells from the spell pool. These can be any spells you wish. This PrC alone gives you versatility (something missing in a lot of sorcerer builds). The half level limitation balances it but you should find the limit suffcient for most cases (divinations, protections, etc)
Featwise i tend towards Spell Focus/Spell Penetration/Improved Initiative/Leadership/Meta magics (Subsitution especially). Skip the item creation feats if possible. You may be able to offload item creation feats to your cohort if you are allowed by your DM to take leadership.
Spell penetration and its Greater version aren't needed until you get pretty high in levels (15th/18th feat slots). Once there, i would consider it almost critical.
For Spell Focus, here are the common ones for a battle mage
Transmutation - The school of the one shot kill spells. With greater Spell Penetration, this allows you to kill off major opposition in the first round (Pit Fiends etc). This also covers your Fort Based saves
Charm/Enchantment - This allows you to reduce the enemy's forces by a few while reinforcing your own. It is also a one shot kill spell for the right circumstances. However, a lot of monster types are immune to these spells, plus a simple protection from evil (1st level) kills it. This covers your will saves.
Evocation - The blasting spells. This allows you to take out large numbers of monsters or weaken things that would otherwise be immune to your other spells. These cover your reflex saves.
As for the other schools i'm not a great fan of those so i'll ignore them for this discussion.
Alot of PrCs give bonus Metagmagic slots so use those and save your 1/3 level feat slots for general feats. Think about Subdual subsitution. This will allow you to fireball in town without killing anyone and also covers things such as hold person when you need to capture someone. To ensure you can kill stuff, think about Energy Subsitution (Sonic). Very few things protect against sonic attacks and fewer monsters still have resistance towards it. Empower is also a good choice, as is heighten. Both allows you to reuse your lower level spells for greater damage or higher save DCs. Empower also breaks a lot of spells
For your spell list always remember this - Plan your entire spell list up to 9th level spells. This is very important to prevent redunancy in spell known selection
Also ask youself these questions. Would it be better served to use a magic item? Would the spell be much much better with a higher casting level than through items? Is it DC based? Does it Ignore SR and Saves (this is very good for a sorcerer)? Does it hit another save type (Ref/Will/Fort) in which i'm lacking in?
Mage Armor is a poor man's bracers of Armor. Once you find those, you'll find that you've wasted one of your known spell slots. Truestrike doesn't get any benefit at all from higher casting levels. It would be better off in wands. Unless you've gotten empower as your metamagic feat, the same applies to buff spells. They would work almost as well as casted in wand form
Also look at ignored spells like wind wall (this is an archer's bane) and always have haste, fly and teleport in your spell list. These 3 are among the must haves IMO. Also if you have taken empower, always take eagle's splendor (T&B) and is at all possible, cat's grace (initiative) and endurance (hp). A multiple empowered buff is much more effective at high levels than a non epic ehancement item and with a sorcerer's spell slots you can rebuff (perhaps dropping 1 of the multiple empowers) without too much problem after a disjunction
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Luis Figoo said:
MotAO requires 8 ranks of Knowledge: Arcana. Since you need to be fifth level in order to buy up the skill that high, the earliest you could enter this PrC is at 6th level.
Exact requirements:
Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks
Feats: Two metamagic feats, one of which must be Cooperative Spell.
Spells: Ability to prepare and cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher..
Special: 750 gp initiation fee.
Luis Figoo
First Post
bret said:
My mistake, i didn't count the monk level. Yes it would be minimum 5th, but why 6th? Human bonus feat, 1st level feat, 3rd level feat would qualify you based on feats
Ah i see you're counting it as sorcerer 5/ MotAO 1. I thought you were referring to Sorcerr 6/MotAO 1
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