Mind Blank and Telepathic Bond = The Uninformed Barbarian?

[Joker]

Thanks Felix.

Karinsdad, we both interpret the Core in different ways. You think you are right and I think I am right. The way *I* see it is that both our viewpoints *are* supported by the rules, so that leaves us with no solution except the one we make for ourselves. Until an official ruling is made, which I doubt will come anytime soon.

My group has decided…for now, and the spell blocks all divination spells.

Unfortunately my group has decided the same. To have things run smoother at our table how do you handle the following spells when used by someone against someone with Mind Blank:

True Strike, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, True Seeing, See Invisibility, regular Telepathy, Tongues.

Thanks in advance.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad, we both interpret the Core in different ways. You think you are right and I think I am right. The way *I* see it is that both our viewpoints *are* supported by the rules, so that leaves us with no solution except the one we make for ourselves. Until an official ruling is made, which I doubt will come anytime soon.

To tell you the truth Joker, I am usually the first to admit when two interpretations are possible because core is unclear.

But in this case, core is not unclear. People are attempting to use the phrase "information gathering by divination spells or effects" to indicate some form of rules loophole, but the phrase is clear when you understand that all divination spells gather information in one way, shape, or form. That is the entire intent of the Divination School, just like the entire intent of the Enchantment School is to affect the mind. If you continue to deny this basic fact, then of course you will continue to disagree.

Not only that, but you already have an official ruling in the FAQ and you continue to erroneously claim that no official ruling has been made.

 

[RuminDange]

Unfortunately my group has decided the same. To have things run smoother at our table how do you handle the following spells when used by someone against someone with Mind Blank:

True Strike, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, True Seeing, See Invisibility, regular Telepathy, Tongues.

Thanks in advance.

True Strike against a Mind Blanked target strangely has never actually come up yet. But it would be blocked based on a short conversation with one of my players last night about this thread. Basically, how do you see a few seconds into the future on someone you doesn't exist (via mind blank) to the divination?

Moment of Prescience has never been used as most of the stuff we use is still 3.0. No one wants to buy $90 worth of books when what we got works just fine. I pull stuff out the SRD 3.5 to clarify problems and have pulled some of the spells so far. But no one has this one yet.

Foresight, in my groups opinion is very badly worded as well. Bacause of a difference in opinion no one uses it anymore. At least until we rewrite it for a house rule version to clarify it. Technically someone with Foresight would not sense an attack coming from someone with mind blank. Again it is a question of how do you detect what isn't there?

True Seeing and See Invisibility do no detect a mind blanked target, as per the group decision at this time. They have used the Mind blank-Invis combo to great effect and so has thier enemies.

Tongues, because it works in an area around the target still functions to translate what is heard even if spoken by the mind blanked creature. The spell does the work of translation not by reading the mind of the speaker.

Telepathic Bond works with a Mind Blanked target as long as it was placed on the target first. Basically seen as a open port through a firewall kind of thing. Since Telepathic bond cannot influence or read thoughts it was seen as a possible exception. Telepathy items work only with people you know personally IMC so at this time it works though the mind blank as well. Frankly, my group feel that Telepathy is in wrong school of magic as it doesn't really divine anything. It enchants or grants one the ability to project thier own thoughts. If you have a Helm of Telepathy you can tell others something but they cannot respond in like kind without also having a Helm of Telepathy.

I agree with Karisdad's interpretation of the way spell is written and the FAQ has clarified, but that doesn't mean it works that way IMC.

Strange question, but and since it is not core or in the SRD, if you have the Magic of Faerun, how would you rule Ghost Harp with Mind Blanked Bard for instance? Another strange divination.

RD

 

[Philip]

Yes, the designers. The ones who said in the FAQ that Mind Blank stops all divinations.

It does not get more clear than that.

That's just where the trouble starts actually. If only because information about a person is not exactly contained within the physical person, it is contained in its enviroment as well. This is especially true when you think of spells as True Strike. Heck, even the person that is being divined might not even have thought of his next combat maneuvers, and he might never will (because he is hardly the only factor in deciding where he is going to be on the moment true strike goes off).

People won't see the person's friends, or even the enviroment if the Mind Blanked person is being scried, because when we see friends shaking hands with something 'invisible', or answering questions that we don't hear asked, we are divining information about that person. Can we not see his reflection on the mirror nearby, not hear what words he utters to the scrying sensor, but do we see orcs suddenly grow gaping wounds when an unnoticed assailant cuts through them? Is only 'some' information not gathered?

Do powers from the other planes not answer when asked about a historical events that our currently Mind Blanked person participated in, however indirectly, because they might reveal information about the Mind Blanked person, when the wizard uses Contact Other Plane? If they do not answer questions about the 'assassination of King Osric', do they not imply that our Mind Blanked person is involved and thereby still allow you to gather information about him through this divination spell.

Clearly, such a broad interpretation leads to utter nonsense, when truly applied as you say it must. Information gathering is too broad a term, even when only applied to all divination spells.

 

[Joker]

Sorry, don't have Magic of Fearun.

Yes, I'm sure Mind Blank plus Greater Invisibility will be used to great effect for against our party. In other words, we're screwed unless someone has a scroll of Glitterdust .

 

[RuminDange]

Sorry, don't have Magic of Fearun.

Yes, I'm sure Mind Blank plus Greater Invisibility will be used to great effect for against our party. In other words, we're screwed unless someone has a scroll of Glitterdust .

Basically Ghostharp is a 0-level Bard divination spell that allows you touch a harp and cause it to record and then play back a song it heard.

So the interesting question is, does Ghostharp record a song played by Mind Blanked Bard or does it just sit silent when commanded to play it back?

RD

 

[KarinsDad]

That's just where the trouble starts actually. If only because information about a person is not exactly contained within the physical person, it is contained in its enviroment as well. This is especially true when you think of spells as True Strike. Heck, even the person that is being divined might not even have thought of his next combat maneuvers, and he might never will (because he is hardly the only factor in deciding where he is going to be on the moment true strike goes off).

So if I am understanding you, it is not okay to Scry the person in the present with Arcane Eye, but it is ok to effectively Scry the person in the future with True Strike.

People won't see the person's friends, or even the enviroment if the Mind Blanked person is being scried, because when we see friends shaking hands with something 'invisible', or answering questions that we don't hear asked, we are divining information about that person. Can we not see his reflection on the mirror nearby, not hear what words he utters to the scrying sensor, but do we see orcs suddenly grow gaping wounds when an unnoticed assailant cuts through them? Is only 'some' information not gathered?

The answer to that is quite clearly written in Mind Blank itself.

The protected character is not viewed, but obviously this does not stop the results of his actions and the rest of the physical environment around him from being viewed.

"In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected."


Again, this focus on "information gathered" screws with people's heads. The simple view of "it does not divine him directly, or divinations do not work with regard to the target and ONLY the target" makes more sense.

People are really focusing on the phrase "information gathered" as it is the key aspect of the spell. It isn't. What is key is that the Enhancement School of Magic and the Divination School of Magic are stopped with the sole exception that Divination spells that gain their information from elsewhere are not stopped.

If I use my Telepathic Bond to talk to Fred about Mind Blanked Barney, that is ok. I just cannot use my Telepathic Bond to talk to or from Mind Blanked Barney.

Do powers from the other planes not answer when asked about a historical events that our currently Mind Blanked person participated in, however indirectly, because they might reveal information about the Mind Blanked person, when the wizard uses Contact Other Plane? If they do not answer questions about the 'assassination of King Osric', do they not imply that our Mind Blanked person is involved and thereby still allow you to gather information about him through this divination spell.

Clearly, such a broad interpretation leads to utter nonsense, when truly applied as you say it must. Information gathering is too broad a term, even when only applied to all divination spells.

I agree here.

If you get the information from a different source (and that source does not use divinatino to get the information from the protected creature), then the divination works because it is not targeting the protected character.

But, you cannot get a bonus to hit against the protected target via a divination spell. You cannot read his mind. You cannot have him telepathically communicate with you. You cannot scry him. You cannot use Tongues against the protected target because the targeting of Tongues is a single creature.

If the divination spell explicitly states that it gains it's information from a different source (outsider, deity, etc.), then you are not getting the information from the target.

Granted, there may be some gray area spells, but True Strike, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, True Seeing, See Invisibility, and Tongues are not among them. You cannot get information from a character that is effectively invisible to direct divination spells and all of these spells must be able to target the protected creature in order to get information about him. They do not target his environment to get the information.


Divination itself can be used because it gets information from a deity, however, even spells like Divination can be thwarted depending on how they are used. If the deity has to get the information through the Mind Blank (e.g. What is the creature doing right now?, presumably an "activity" Divination could normally handle), it fails. Granted, a deity could get around this by sending a spy, but that seems to defeat the DND intent of defense trumps offense.

 

[KarinsDad]

Basically Ghostharp is a 0-level Bard divination spell that allows you touch a harp and cause it to record and then play back a song it heard.

So the interesting question is, does Ghostharp record a song played by Mind Blanked Bard or does it just sit silent when commanded to play it back?

I think the intent of Mind Blank is to prevent scrying of any type, including eavesdropping on what the protected character is saying. So, I would rule that the information is coming directly from the target, just like light comes off the target when Arcane Eye is used. This is like an Arcane Ear spell.


I think the general rule is to disallow any divinations, especially low level ones, unless it is explicitly clear that the information is gained from a different (intelligent and presumably not magical) source.

 

[Joker]

In fact, I know that the intent of Mind Blank was to block all Scrying spells, but I find it odd (as someone mentioned in the other thread) that Scrying is specifically mentioned to be blocked. Rather redundent if Mind Blank blocked every single spell from the Divinition school. Maybe I'm just strange.

And why couldn't you get a bonus to hit against a protected target using this spell? It's called Mind Blank and protects the creature's mind. It doesn't remove him from existance. His body is still going to be at the point and time in space where your True Strike enhanced sword swing is going to land.

I don't even know why I bother. Nap time.

 

[Philip]

I think the intent of Mind Blank is to prevent scrying of any type, including eavesdropping on what the protected character is saying. So, I would rule that the information is coming directly from the target, just like light comes off the target when Arcane Eye is used. This is like an Arcane Ear spell.

I would be inclined to treat sound coming from an Mind Blanked creature's mouth no different as an arrow coming from her bow, saliva dripping from her mouth, shadows cast by her body, impression made by her feet or reflections in the mirror made by her person. If I would treat Mind Blank as completely blocking all divinations, that is.