Mind Blank and Telepathic Bond = The Uninformed Barbarian?

[Joker]

In an earlier post you didn't make the distinction between the magical and the mundane when you said that Mind Blank blocks all conversation .

What it comes down to is that your interpretation of what the spell blocks differs from mine. You will cite lines from the RAW to support your views and I will do the same, leading us nowhere but to a higher post count .

 

[KarinsDad]

In an earlier post you didn't make the distinction between the magical and the mundane when you said that Mind Blank blocks all conversation .

Now you are being silly over how I said something. You knew what I meant there.

What it comes down to is that your interpretation of what the spell blocks differs from mine. You will cite lines from the RAW to support your views and I will do the same, leading us nowhere but to a higher post count .

Except that I also cited lines from the FAQ that supports my view.

You still have not stated how you (or the RAW) draw the line between "divination spells that gather information" and "divination spells that do not gather information". And, you have not stated a single location in RAW that makes such a distinction. In order for your interpretation to be correct, there has to be at least ONE spell or rule in RAW that states that the divination spell does not gather information and hence bypasses Mind Blank (and similar protective magic).

Your entire position centers around differentiating properties (information gathering vs. non-information gathering) about spells within the Divination school when those properties are not listed as game mechanics. There is no such game mechanic listed as a "non-information gathering Divination spell".

But, this is precisely why there are game mechanics such as "mind-altering" so that we know more than just "enchantment school". You have no such game mechanic to support your position here.

The entire school of Divination gathers information. It finds out hidden or secret things (including short term future AC vulnerabilities of a target with True Strike). That's the purpose of the Divination School and the definition of the word Divination, let's go to Webster:

Divination \Div`i*na"tion\, n. [L. divinatio, fr. divinare,
divinatum, to foresee, foretell, fr. divinus: cf. F.
divination. See Divine.]
1. The act of divining; a foreseeing or foretelling of future
events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by
preternatural means.
[1913 Webster]

There shall not be found among you any one that . .
. useth divination, or an observer of times, or an
enchanter. --Deut. xviii.
10.
[1913 Webster]

Note: Among the ancient heathen philosophers natural
divination was supposed to be effected by a divine
afflatus; artificial divination by certain rites,
omens, or appearances, as the flight of birds, entrails
of animals, etc.
[1913 Webster]

2. An indication of what is future or secret; augury omen;
conjectural presage; prediction.
[1913 Webster]

Birds which do give a happy divination of things to
come. --Sir T.
North.
[1913 Webster]

 

[Joker]

Now you are being silly over how I said something. You knew what I meant there.

Trust me when I say that I don't have a clue. I have repeatedly used the SRD to show you how I make that distinction, but you have conveniently ignored it, again.

 

[KarinsDad]

Trust me when I say that I don't have a clue. I have repeatedly used the SRD to show you how I make that distinction, but you have conveniently ignored it, again.

You have not once in this entire thread stated how you differentiate between Divination spells that "gather information" and ones that do not.

How is any other DM supposed to know how to do this without you saying how? Should they call Joker???

The closest that you have come is stating that future predictors are not information gatherers, but you haven't yet once said how someone makes that distinction (and the fact that you have not told us how to do it shouts volumes that this is all interpretive gut feel and not RAW).

Future predictors do not gather information? How? Would you know that information if the spell didn't give it to you? What is the limitation of the phrase "gather information" and how would a DM know that from RAW?


Here are the substantial statements that you made so far and none of them indicate how someone differentiates between Divination spells that gather information and those that do not:


"Mind Blank states that it protects against all forms "information gathering by divination spells or effects." This does not mean that it protects against all spells from the Divinition School. IMO, spells that divine (which Mind Blank protects against) don't make up the entire school of spells that together are called the Divinition School.
I don't see Telepathic Bond as a spell that divines. However, that's just personal preferance"

"I don't see how True Strike is a detects emotions or thoughts spell, or is an information gatherer. By the wording it seems more like a future predicter than anything else."

"Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, does it state that Mind Blank blocks conversation, which IMO telepathy is just another form of."

"That wasn't the point of what I said. I quoted the Divinition section to show you that not all divinitions gather information, some actually (I know, go figure) look into the future. Some gather information (which Mind Blank specifically blocks), some look into the future (which Mind Blank says nothing about)."


At this point, you seem to not be discussing the rules, rather pointing fingers at what I say (you've done this twice now in the last two posts of yours). I suspect that you have a set answer for how you want to run this in your game (since you are the original poster) and dislike the fact that I have posted both RAW and FAQ that disagrees with your original opinion.

 

[Joker]

I guess I should be more explicit in my explanations. For the second time, from the SRD:

"Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells."

This is how I differentiate between information gathering and future predictions. As I see it, divinitions are capable of those things that the SRD states that they are capable of. I don't read in that, however, that every spell from the divinition school does those things. YMMV, and it obviously does.

I have to point fingers at what I write because you don't seem to be reading what I write. So I give up. I'll find out a way to get an official answer and follow that route, because all we've been doing is discussing semantics.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have to point fingers at what I write because you don't seem to be reading what I write. So I give up. I'll find out a way to get an official answer and follow that route, because all we've been doing is discussing semantics.

You already have an official answer. It was in the FAQ, but you appear to want to ignore it. Defensive spells trump offensive ones and Mind Blank protects against all divinations.

 

[Joker]

I don't know how much this matters or how it weighs in terms of what is Core or not but here goes. My e-mail and then the Customer Service reply:

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:14 AM
To: Wizards Customer Service
Subject: Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten
Realms/Eberron Feedback

Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms/Eberron
Feedback
From:

Hi, I had a few questions about the Mind Blank spell.

It says that a creature protected by a Mind Blank Spell is protected
from information gathering by divination spells or effects.

1. Does this mean that Mind Blank protects against all spells from the
Divinition School or only spells that actively divine?

If it does, how do the following spells which are used personally by a
caster and allies react when fighting a Mind Blanked creature:

-True Strike Does someone enhanced with True Strike lose the 20 bonus
on
attack when attacking a Mind Blanked creature?.

-True Seeing Is an invisible Mind Blanked creature still invisible for
someone whose sight is enhanced with True Seeing?

-Foresight A creature using Foresight at personal range is attacked by
a
Mind Blanked creature. Is the creature with Foresight flat-footed?

-Telepathic Bond A party wizard casts Telepathic Bond on the party and
Mind Blank on another party member. Is that party member exempt from
Telepathic communication?

Thanks in advance.

Their reply:

1. It does not protect against all spells from the divination school,
only those that would detect, influence or read thoughts, as well as
any
information gathering effects of divining spells. If something is
scrying the area, the spell will work normally, but the character with
Mind Blank will just not show up as in that area.

All other Divination spells work as normal. Have fun and good gaming!


Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496


Unfortunately, he didn't go into any detail but I guess he pretty much writes what I asked about. Again, I don't know if anyone considers this official.
I do understand your point in that it states in the FAQ that Mind Blank blocks all divinitions but when I read the divinition section in the Magic chapter I see a distinction being made between certain spells within the Divinition school. Now this is just my interpretation of the Core Rules, nowhere does it explicitly say that some divinition spells are exempt from being blocked by Mind Blank. But I just don't see how anyone can be immune to another person's Foresight or True Strike spell. It's like Elmy's immunity to Time Stop .

Regardless, our DM has made his mind up about Mind Blank and for simplicity's sake has gone with your argument. He better not look suprised when our Mind Blanked, Improved Invisible, Silent Barbarian chops away without any fear of reprisal , barring Glitterdust .

Happy discussing, I think I've said all I wanted to.

 

[KarinsDad]

Unfortunately, he didn't go into any detail but I guess he pretty much writes what I asked about. Again, I don't know if anyone considers this official.
I do understand your point in that it states in the FAQ that Mind Blank blocks all divinitions but when I read the divinition section in the Magic chapter I see a distinction being made between certain spells within the Divinition school. Now this is just my interpretation of the Core Rules, nowhere does it explicitly say that some divinition spells are exempt from being blocked by Mind Blank. But I just don't see how anyone can be immune to another person's Foresight or True Strike spell. It's like Elmy's immunity to Time Stop .

It is interesting that you did not point the FAQ (our only official answer) out to him.

As for True Strike, it is simple. You do not get the +20 against this opponent because you cannot divine anything about his future. Just like Scrying with a current vision, you cannot perceive him in your future vision, so how can you target his future weaknesses?

Ditto for Foresight. You do not foresee him as a threat at all. In fact, Foresight seems to only be for "non-suprise events" anyway. "This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.". The Invisible Rogue sneak attacks you and gets past your wimpy Foresight, but the powerful Mind Blank does not.

It just seems weird to me that all of the powerful divination spell like Scrying would be stopped, but the dinky minor ones wouldn't.

And again, I cannot really even understand the differences (in your mind) between the divination spells. They all give you information you wouldn't normally have.

 

[Sithobi1]

You could influence someone's emotions toward you by firing a fireball at him/her, right? So does Mind Blank make him/her immune to the fireball? Of course not. Therefore, there must be something wrong with the spell.

 

[Felix]

I would think that the Detect spells of the Divination school would be considered [information gathering].

Really, Karin's Dad, it's a reasonable argument either way.

It doesn't say Mind Blank defeats all Divination spells, but rather Divination spells that gather information. You certainly can read this to mean that there are Divination spells that don't "gather information" because it would be redundant; much easier to say "Mind Blank buggers Divination".

And yes, you can go ahead and bugger Divination with this one spell if you like; the above argument isn't conclusive because WotC didn't bother to define what "Information Gathering" means as a game term.

Furthermore, the FAQ and CustServ have been quoted to support arguments, but considering how both of them are notedly unreliable, they hardly belong in the Rules forum.

Really, it comes down to the question of wether "Information Gathering" is a game term. If not, then all Divinations reveal info, and so all are defeated. If it is a game term, the negligence of WotC forces DMs to define it, so that it's easy to see which Divinations are blocked.