Mind Blank and Telepathic Bond = The Uninformed Barbarian?

[Felix]

Which divination spells do not gather information?

Arguably, Telepathic Bond does not.

It does not detect.
It does not reveal.
It does not pry.
It does not enhance information gathering senses.

It silences conversation. Mind Blank does not (and as far as I'm concerned should not) block conversation, even if it is through magical means.

Of course, if you make "gather information" into a broad enough range, then simply existing is a process of gathering information, because you continually update your awareness of your environment.

I reject this interpretation because it is too broad and too applicable. It specifically mentions [Mind-affecting] as a kind of spell that it blocks, and I am willing to treat [Information-gathering] as a subschool of Divination. Unfortunately, it's a case by case decision on which spells are included.

YMMV

 

[Joker]

I don't know if this matters in either way but I thought I'd just throw it out there:

Lesser Telepathic Bond (CD) has the [Mind-Effecting] tag, whereas Rary's Telepathic Bond does not. So as I see it, Lesser would be blocked by Mind Blank and Rary's would not.

 

[KarinsDad]

But I just do not think, that this is what they meant. Why stress the information gathering part?

I think the phrase "information gathering" is only stressed if you think that Telempathic Bond is somehow an exception to the normal Divination school of gathering information. I think the more important emphasis in that sentence is "by divination spells or effects".

"Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells."

What exactly does the school of divination do if not gather information?

Give me three or four examples of Divination spells that do not gather information. The entire intent of the Divination school of magic is to gather information. And, communicating is the most basic method of gathering information.

Also, if Telempathic Bond does not gather information, how can it allow you to communicate with the minds of creatures whose language you do not know? Do you rule that if used in that manner, Telempathic Bond fails against Mind Blank and if not used in that manner, it does not fail against Mind Blank?


Mind Blank is an 8th level spell that happens to stop an entire school of magic (Divination) with regard to the protected character (plus it does other things).

True Seeing is a 5th (through 7th, class depending) level spell that happens to stop an entire school of magic (Illusion) with regard to the protected character (plus it does other things).

How is this unreasonable? And the real question becomes, how is this not RAW?

I think it's just spells like those they list in the examples... detect spells and such. Spells, which actually give you information (directly) without any further help. Not spells, which enhance your senses or provide you with better means of communication, but those that you cast and then receive knowledge.

If it states:

a)
b)
c)

a valid argument is not that it states b and c, hence, it does not mean a.

 

[KarinsDad]

Lesser Telepathic Bond (CD) has the [Mind-Effecting] tag, whereas Rary's Telepathic Bond does not. So as I see it, Lesser would be blocked by Mind Blank and Rary's would not.

Just because Mind Affecting is stopped does not mean that Divination is not stopped.

PS. I do not have my CD book with me (loaned it to a fellow PC). What does Lesser Telepathic Bond state?

 

[Joker]

Does Mind Blank protect the recipient from a True Strike enhanced attack, i.e. is the attack rolled normally but without the +20 to hit?

I don't have CD either, I just remember that part because I'm a genius .

 

[Thanee]

Give me three or four examples of Divination spells that do not gather information.

Comprehend Languages
True Strike
See Invisibility
Arcane Sight
Tongues
Telepathic Bond
True Seeing
Moment of Prescience
Foresight

These are spells from the PHB arcane spell list, which I would not consider as information gathering.

They enhance you, but do not give you any information. Sure, with the enhancement you are able to obtain information you might otherwise not be, but they do not just give you the information.

Anyways, I can only offer you the reasons why I think it should be that way, I cannot give you any proof, since the RAW does not say how the spell works. It only lists a qualifier with no explanation as to what that means.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Comprehend Languages
True Strike
See Invisibility
Arcane Sight
Tongues
Telepathic Bond
True Seeing
Moment of Prescience
Foresight

These are spells from the PHB arcane spell list, which I would not consider as information gathering.

All of these spells are informational gathering, however, some of them might gather the information from a different source than the Mind Blanked creature. If they do, then Mind Blank does not protect against them.

They enhance you, but do not give you any information. Sure, with the enhancement you are able to obtain information you might otherwise not be, but they do not just give you the information.

All of these spells directly give you the information. You see the invisible creature because See Invisible penetrates his invisibility in some manner (the manner being unknown to us). But you cannot say what that manner is.

What you are doing is creating a "sub class" of low level minor divination spells that are somehow special and can penetrate the defense of an 8th level Abjuration spell, even though they do not state that they do. If they would not bust through Nondetection (assuming failed save), why would they bust through Mind Blank automatically?

Anyways, I can only offer you the reasons why I think it should be that way, I cannot give you any proof, since the RAW does not say how the spell works. It only lists a qualifier with no explanation as to what that means.

I think that if Telepathic Bond was not perceived by you to be helpful as opposed to being harmful, we would not be having this discussion.

I see the phrase:

"as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects"

to be no different than:

"as well as deception by illusion spells or effects" or:
"as well as damage by evocation spells or effects"

Just because the sentence indicates a little about what the school of magic is all about, does not mean that the phrase can be used to somehow state that the school of magic now has sub-categories that are outside of the phrase.

"Mind Blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject's mind or gain information about it."

This states that if you are using these super powerful spells to gain knowledge about the subject, they fail.

True Seeing can be used to find out that the polymorphed Halfling is really a Halfling, but Wish cannot???

 

[Thanee]

If you use Wish to see true, then it works the same.
If you use Wish to affect the mind, then it works the same... or not for that matter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

If you use Wish to see true, then it works the same.
If you use Wish to affect the mind, then it works the same... or not for that matter.

If my DM said that my 8th level protection from mind affecting and divination spells Mind Blank spell did not work against See Invisibility (although my 4th level Nondetection might depending on if the save is made), I'd start throwing dice at him.


From the FAQ (emphasize mine):

"Can someone using a discern location spell find someone using mind blank spell?

No. While the discern location spell description contains some pretty strong language about the spell's ability to overcome effects that block scrying of divinations, the general rule in the D&D game favors defense over offense, so mind blank's ability to block scrying and all forms of divination trumps discern location's ability to penetrate such defenses."

 

[Joker]

Nice how you conveniently ignore my True Strike question . I don't see how you can rationalize True Strike as being an information gatherer, though I'm sure someone here will find the words to do so.

Mind Blank states that it protects against all forms "information gathering by divination spells or effects." This does not mean that it protects against all spells from the Divinition School. IMO, spells that divine (which Mind Blank protects against) don't make up the entire school of spells that together are called the Divinition School.
I don't see Telepathic Bond as a spell that divines. However, that's just personal preferance. Nowhere in the spell description does it say how the subjects make their thoughts heard so without an official clarification of the spell or a description of how telepathy works people will discuss this ad nauseam.

Not that I mind. That's why I'm here .