Mind blank vs. see invisibility/true seeing

[Artoomis]

Interesting thread. I wonder if there is a difference between getting information on a subject and side-stepping magic that is hiding a subject.?

True seeing lets you "See" invisible things - it doesn't let you "detect" them - I wonder if there is a difference for Mind Blank purposes?

More to the point, is "information gathering by divination spells" the same as "the ability to see all things as they actually are?" I am not so sure.

I think there may be a difference between seeing an invisble person and gaining information about them.

In other words, I think there is a significant difference between a spell that lets you detect someone's presence when they are invisible and a spell that simply lets you see everything as it really is.

Note that Mind Blank specifically does not protect you from ALL divination spells - only "information gathering by divination spells." I think if you actually see the invisible person you are not "gathering information" - you are just looking at them through the magic that makes them invisible.

It seems to that Mind Blank is intended to be the universal block against information gathering (scrying and the like), not other effects like True Strike and Invisibility - one can only call those information gathering when one is being rather hyper-technical.

You may (and probably will) disagree.

 

[IceBear]

I disagree somewhat, mainly because Monte also agrees with the view that Mind Blank would block True Strike.

It's also been stated in the DNDFAQ that Mind Blank would block all divination spells.

That said, I could see allowing True Sight see an invisible person. I see True Sight as giving you the ability to actually see an invisible creature or object, not divining it's location like detect invisible. I know it's semantics, but it helps tone down the power of Mind Blank somewhat.

Just so I don't seem contradictory, I would have disagreed with Mind Blank blocking True Strike, if it contained language that provided the +20 bonus without divining some insight into the target.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

I've read this thread, but not the previous one.

If true seeing lets the caster ignore illusions (essentially makes her blind to illusions), you could argue that mind blank is no use against it. True seeing doesn't interact with mind blank's caster -- it interacts with the illusion spells on mind blank's caster.

This seems to me like it'd hold true for the spell's intent. Especially since true seeing foils magical but not mundane disguises, it seems to be interacting with the magic itself, not with the individual disguised.

But I've not read through the entire other thread yet, so cum grano salis and all.

Daniel

 

[Galfridus]

OK...

Would Mind Blank prevent someone from being seen by a character using Arcane Eye?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Thanks for the quality input, esteemed posters! Glad to know I was right in thinking the Great Mind Blank War would stay on the TS/MB thread...

Shard: What you describe is a typical tactic for the wizard PC (a converted Inv20/Acm3) in my campaign. Most smart wizards also use spells that do not originate at the caster and have the Silent Spell feat applied, and move around a bunch in order to avoid mundane detection. There is a clear counter-tactic, though: leave the area. When our wizzie starts laying down the barrage, my smarter baddies either get inside an anti-magic field or teleport away (both reasonable options for CR 15+ opponents, which is what your mind-blanked wizard should be facing.

It would get even more brutal if that Inv/Acm used the projected image spell as well. I know as a victim of it that it gives the spellcaster usually one extra round of bombarment before the party busts out the true seeing and knows the projected image is false, and the mage is flying around somewhere invisible. Of course since I was a psion I had too few hps to survive an extra round so I just teleported away abondoning my companions to a unpleasant fate.

 

[Umbran]

Re: OK...

Would Mind Blank prevent someone from being seen by a character using Arcane Eye?

Read the Mind Blank spell. It specifically states that Arcane Eye will not detect a Mind Blanked individual.

The spell's name is misleading, but the intent seems clear. Mind Blank protects against all divinations. Period. The action of the spell is not limited to protecting the creature's mind.

 

[IceBear]

Re: OK...

Would Mind Blank prevent someone from being seen by a character using Arcane Eye?

It would because it explicitly states that it blocks scrying, and that's what Arcane Eye is doing.

Yes, that puts my idea of letting True Sight work against Mind Blank on shaky ground, but it's a little different in that you are actually there (you're not scrying). I guess I would just like to have one high level divination spell work against Mind Blank, but rulewise, probably not.

IceBear

 

[KarinsDad]

If true seeing lets the caster ignore illusions (essentially makes her blind to illusions), you could argue that mind blank is no use against it. True seeing doesn't interact with mind blank's caster -- it interacts with the illusion spells on mind blank's caster.

Well, at least part of True Seeing should be stopped:

"Additionally, the divine version of this spell allows the subject to see auras, noting alignments of creatures at a glance."

Detecting an aura is detecting knowledge about a subject.


As for the rest of True Seeing, it is up for grabs. Personally, I think Mind Blank has to protect all of the spells on a target (i.e. protects against Detect Poison due to the poison on the target's blade, protects against Detect Magic due to the target's magical blade, etc.). Otherwise, the protective quality of it is virtually non-existant.

I view it as a small zone of protection that extends beyond the other magical and mundane zones of the target.

No divination spell breaks through that outer zone to reach the inner zone, even divination spells that affect another target (such as the recepient of True Seeing).

The reason I view it this way is that if I do not, the protection of Mind Blank against Divination is worthless.

As far as True Seeing is concerned, I view it that True Seeing allows the recepient to gain knowledge on the location of invisible objects, hence, Mind Blank stops it. YMMV.

 

[Pielorinho]

The reason I view it this way is that if I do not, the protection of Mind Blank against Divination is worthless.

Surely you're exaggerrating for effect, right? You view:
* Protection vs. scrying
* Protection vs. detect thoughts
* Protection vs. discern location
* Protection vs. any mind-affecting magic
* Protection vs., possibly, true strike
* Protection vs. commune, legend lore, and the like

as worthless?

Not me. I think them's some pretty fine protections.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Not me. I think them's some pretty fine protections.

Yes, they are.

But, the problem is that if you take the absolute micro view, then there are "workarounds".

I cannot detect his thoughts. Ok, I use Detect Magic and detect his Mind Blank spell.

Err.

I cannot scry him. Ok, I scry his famous sword.

To me, this is a waste of the protective quality of the spell.