Mind blank vs True seeing and divinations

[KarinsDad]

So KD,

Wizard A is under the effects of Mind Blank, as well as Shapechange (taking the form of a dragon).

Wizard B casts True Seeing. What does he see? Does Mind Blank mean he sees a dragon?

Yes. He would see the Dragon with his everyday regular "normal sight".

His True Seeing would not show him the natural form of the creature.

Hence, he would see a dragon and nothing more.

If he had Darkvision and True Seeing up, he would see the Dragon with the Darkvision because Darkvision is not a Divination spell.

I've never gotten a campaign to 9th-level spells yet, so I haven't had to make this call. I've always fallen into the "subset of Divination" category, but recently I've considered ruling that in the above situation, Wizard B wouldn't see anything at all. i.e. the Mind Blank doesn't negate True Seeing, but renders one invisible to divinations. The savvy spellcaster, then, would know something was wrong, though not perhaps what, at first.

Why?

If the divination does not show anything different, how does the spellcaster know the difference between it not showing anything different because there is nothing there to be seen and it not showing anything different because it is being foiled?


Now, if a Wizard is 100 feet from the Dragon and casts Clairvoyance (which divines a normal view at a distance) in the area of the Dragon, then he would have two views: dragon and no dragon.

But, True Seeing does not do this.


The problem I have with the subset of Divination ruling is that:

a) Divination spells by definition are supposed to gather information.
b) Where do you draw the line with them?

 

[Felix]

a) Divination spells by definition are supposed to gather information.

Those words are actually only ever used in reference to cone-shaped spells in the Schools of Magic description, so it is the spirit of the Divination school you must refer to, and not the letter. Ok. No problem with that. But it is a choice between having "information gathering" be defined within the game, or using its understood meaning outside of the game. I happen to select the former.

b) Where do you draw the line with them?

Where you feel it's reasonable? I.E., use the exact same DM adjudicating powers you wield in every other facet of the game. Go through the Divination school and decide which spells are not blocked, and hand that list out to your arcanists. It's not as if DM discretion isn't applicable in this circumstance.


The problem I have with the all Divinations ruling is that:

a) An 8th level spell trumps all of Divination and Enchantment, as well as L. Wish/Wish/Miracle, when used in given ways. Allowing some divinations reigns this back a bit.

b) It is easier and clearer to say "Protects against all Divination spells and effects as well as..." The phrase "information gathering by divination..." can imply a subset of the divination school.

The problem with defining the subset is because "information gathering" as having the understood meaning is that it's as vague as it is elastic. It can be applied to every spell, or few spells depending upon how you shape it. It loses its meaning because it is so vague, but still maintains the quality of implying possible subsets of Divination spells. What is left but DM discretion?

 

[KarinsDad]

Where you feel it's reasonable? I.E., use the exact same DM adjudicating powers you wield in every other facet of the game. Go through the Divination school and decide which spells are not blocked, and hand that list out to your arcanists. It's not as if DM discretion isn't applicable in this circumstance.

I think it is reasonable (and much easier) to disallow all divination spells.

The problem I have with the all Divinations ruling is that:

a) An 8th level spell trumps all of Divination and Enchantment, as well as L. Wish/Wish/Miracle, when used in given ways. Allowing some divinations reigns this back a bit.

Why do you need to reign it back? It does not trump all Divination and Enchantment, just those with respect to the protected creature. Typically, you can sidestep some of this by targeting the creature's allies.

I don't quite understand why it is balanced for the 5th level spell True Seeing to foil the school of Illusion for one individual, but it's unbalanced for an 8th level spell to foil two schools of magic for one individual.

b) It is easier and clearer to say "Protects against all Divination spells and effects as well as..." The phrase "information gathering by divination..." can imply a subset of the divination school.

I hesitate to make rulings on "Well, it was easier for the designers to say it in a clearer fashion".

The problem with defining the subset is because "information gathering" as having the understood meaning is that it's as vague as it is elastic. It can be applied to every spell, or few spells depending upon how you shape it. It loses its meaning because it is so vague, but still maintains the quality of implying possible subsets of Divination spells. What is left but DM discretion?

Agreed. I just prefer to take the mile high view: All Divination spells gather information, hence, all Divination spells are stopped with regard to the individual.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Why?

If the divination does not show anything different, how does the spellcaster know the difference between it not showing anything different because there is nothing there to be seen and it not showing anything different because it is being foiled?

Because the True Seeing has modified his sight into a Divination, and Mind Blank would make him invisible to it. So others would see a dragon, and he wouldn't see anything. He might at that point realize he's facing something that has Mind Blank cast upon it, but not what, since he cannot see it. I'm just playing with the idea, but I like the fact that it allows both Mind Blank and True Seeing to be effective in this case.

Now, if a Wizard is 100 feet from the Dragon and casts Clairvoyance (which divines a normal view at a distance) in the area of the Dragon, then he would have two views: dragon and no dragon.

But, True Seeing does not do this.

It depends on how you rule True Seeing. You seem to be ruling it as an alternate kind of vision. Like Darkvision, we'd have "True Seeing-vision." So when "True Seeing-vision" is trumped, you can still fall back on normal vision. I've always thought of True Seeing as modifying your normal vision, not giving you access to a new, independent, kind of vision.

The problem I have with the subset of Divination ruling is that:

a) Divination spells by definition are supposed to gather information.
b) Where do you draw the line with them?

In the past, it's always been easy for me to draw the line. Spells that try to find something out about the subject that you can't know from just looking at them are blocked. Know Alignment, Detect Thoughts, etc. I tend to think of True Seeing as more of a specialized form of antimagic. It doesn't do anything to reach out and gather information at all. It merely negates any magical effect that attempts to affect your vision.

 

[KarinsDad]

Because the True Seeing has modified his sight into a Divination, and Mind Blank would make him invisible to it. So others would see a dragon, and he wouldn't see anything. He might at that point realize he's facing something that has Mind Blank cast upon it, but not what, since he cannot see it. I'm just playing with the idea, but I like the fact that it allows both Mind Blank and True Seeing to be effective in this case.

That's too complex and not how True Seeing really works. True Seeing does not take away your normal vision.

It enhances your vision to see additional things, it does not take things away.

In the past, it's always been easy for me to draw the line. Spells that try to find something out about the subject that you can't know from just looking at them are blocked.

You mean like True Seeing letting you know that the Dragon is really a Human?

Know Alignment, Detect Thoughts, etc. I tend to think of True Seeing as more of a specialized form of antimagic. It doesn't do anything to reach out and gather information at all. It merely negates any magical effect that attempts to affect your vision.

Except this is explicitly not how True Seeing works. If you are Shapechanged, True Seeing sees your normal form. Your normal form does not exist while you are Shapechanged. You are the creature (temporarily) that you changed into, not the one you were before the magic transmuted you. Shapechange is a Transformation that changes your entire form.

When you use True Seeing on a Polymorphed or Shapechanged creature, you immediately gain information about that creature:

"That's not a Troll, it's a stinking Elf!"


There's really no way someone can truthfully claim that True Seeing does not "gather information".

 

[Thanee]

The point is there, Nondetection protect you from detect spells (if the check is good) and Mind Blank wouldn't do it?

Why? Mind Blank does protect against most Detect spells. Detect Magic would still work, because it does not work on the target directly, but Detect Thoughts, for example, or Locate Creature would not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[brehobit]

Why? Mind Blank does protect against most Detect spells. Detect Magic would still work, because it does not work on the target directly, but Detect Thoughts, for example, or Locate Creature would not.

Bye
Thanee

So quick question. Do "vision" detect spells work to detect things inside of an anti-magic shell? I mean if it is only impacting vision (and therefore only impacting the target of the spell) it should still work right?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That's too complex and not how True Seeing really works. True Seeing does not take away your normal vision.

It enhances your vision to see additional things, it does not take things away.

That's just it, though. It enhances your vision into a Divination, which is blocked by Mind Blank. Or at least, that's the idea. Perhaps it's a bit too far-fetched for actual use.

Except this is explicitly not how True Seeing works. If you are Shapechanged, True Seeing sees your normal form. Your normal form does not exist while you are Shapechanged. You are the creature (temporarily) that you changed into, not the one you were before the magic transmuted you. Shapechange is a Transformation that changes your entire form.

When you use True Seeing on a Polymorphed or Shapechanged creature, you immediately gain information about that creature:

"That's not a Troll, it's a stinking Elf!"

This is, again, a matter of interpretation IMO. I see it as magic that is obfuscating what is really there, i.e. an elf. Yes, Shapechange is a more powerful obfuscation than an illusion, since it's a physical change, but the truth is still an elf, even if shapechanged into dragon form. True Seeing prevents the magic of Shapechange from preventing what's really there--an elf--from being seen.

There's really no way someone can truthfully claim that True Seeing does not "gather information".

Here we disagree. I think of True Seeing as brushing aside all impediments to sight, rather than actually gathering information on its own.

 

[Thanee]

So quick question. Do "vision" detect spells work to detect things inside of an anti-magic shell? I mean if it is only impacting vision (and therefore only impacting the target of the spell) it should still work right?

Depends on the individual spell, but the examples I used above would not do much, because they detect magic, which is suppressed, anyways. Anything, that needs a line of effect would not work, naturally.

I see no reason, why Arcane Sight - for example - should not work to see magical auras on someone behind an Antimagic Field.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

There's really no way someone can truthfully claim that True Seeing does not "gather information".

I do.

It does not allow you to obtain information about the subject, it only allows you to pierce magic used to obfuscate the subject.

In a broad sense, of course, looking at a polymorphed creature with True Seeing, allowing you to see it in its natural form, does give you some information about the subject (what it looks like), but that's not what I understand as information gathering.

Bye
Thanee