Mind Flayers wimpy!?

[Dr_Rictus]

If it can't stun, and it can't extract, it can only flee.

Not true. It can still charm. It can still plane shift its foe to the least convenient plane it can think of. What it can't do is do much harm to someone with a good Will save. The lone psion of competetive level is pretty much a worst-case scenario for the mind flayer. Well, except that it's still got all that SR, of course.

Heck, even if it tries to tentacle the psion, they're among the only enemies who aren't seriously affected by being grappled, so they can still use their powers to get away with just a Concentration check that should be pretty manageable by the time you're 10th level.

 

[the Jester]

Now put that 10th level sorcerer against a bodak (CR8). The sorcerer is toast.

Right, but the psion vs. illithid battle is much more akin to psion vs. psion; that's all I'm saying. Try a 10th level fighter against a mind flayer and I suspect you'll have a different outcome as well.

 

[kreynolds]

I understand that.

OK. Just making sure we were one the same wavelength.

Having a single level 11 psion stomp heck out of a single CR 8 mind flayer (or any other creature) doesn't really prove much of anything one way or the other.

It was a single 10 psion, not 11.

You should expect to run into more, then.

As glaringly bad as this? I should hope not. I've run into really strange brick walls in solo games, such as Nightwalkers without clerics or paladins, ghosts without magic wielders of any kind, oozes with no spellcasters, you name it, but this is the first one that truly threw me for a loop.

 

[kreynolds]

extract doesn't require a person to be stunned, that's why the Mind Flayer has Improved Grab. It's a Grapple situation.

Improved Grab has little to do with it. The Mind Flayer simply can't risk closing to grapple with anyone that is even half competent in melee. They'll get hosed trying to get a hold.

each tentacle has it's own attack and can do it's own grapple attack. If the Mind Flayer is lucky, he gets all for grapples and the next round he starts to extract.

A creature can only make a number of grapple attempts per round equal to its base attack bonus. A mind flayer's attack bonus allows for only 2 attempts per round. Does the mind flayer ignore this limitation, unlike other creatures? Improved Grab alone isn't good enough.

 

[Pielorinho]

Now put that 10th level sorcerer against a bodak (CR8). The sorcerer is toast.

Well, sure. But put that CR8 bodak up against a 10th-level cleric, and start them at a distance greater than 50' (so that the bodak can't move forward and use its death gaze), and the bodak is almost certainly toast. The cleric will simply turn the tweaker, and if the turning doesn't work, move back 30'. But a cleric with a 12 cha will turn the bodak 75% of the time, and from then on, it's just mop-up work.

Does this mean a bodak isn't really a CR8 creature? Of course not, because it'll toast a psion, or a wizard or sorcerer or rogue or bard or anyone with a crappy fort save an no turning abilities. But different creatures have strengths and weaknesses against different classes.

Daniel

 

[Dr_Rictus]

It was a single 10 psion, not 11.

My mistake. I'll edit.

As glaringly bad as this? I should hope not.

Probably not. Like I say (elsewhere, I think), the psion is pretty much a worst-case scenario for the mind flayer. I'd compare it to a single rogue against an undead (no turning, no sneak attacks, no rogue), except for which side is the monster.

 

[kreynolds]

Not true. It can still charm.

Not the psion, it can't, unless the psion rolls a 1 on his save, of course. I realize the lone psion is an exception, but that's the topic of the thread, thus my comment about it being weaker.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Right, but the psion vs. illithid battle is much more akin to psion vs. psion; that's all I'm saying.

Even worse, in some ways. Psions can offer each other Fortitude and Reflex saves. The mind flayer can only offer Will saves to the enemy psion, who can counter with Fortitude and Reflex (bad categories for aberrations). Though of course the mind flayer's SR is no small potatoes.

 

[kreynolds]

Well, sure. But put that CR8 bodak up against a 10th-level cleric, and start them at a distance greater than 50' (so that the bodak can't move forward and use its death gaze), and the bodak is almost certainly toast.

Exactly. I was countering the statement that "a CR8 creature is roughly as powerful as an 8th-level character".

 

[Kyramus]

badger cr 1/2
hd advancement to 2.

I remember at one point that we had a hd2 badger who was on the pc side and was effectively one of the front line fighters long with level 3 and 4 fighters.

It was a hillarious sight and when the badger finally died in an encounter and the pcs were level 5, they mourned it's death.

WHen the druid called in a new badger familiar they renamed it to badger2 despite the druid's protest.
hehe

Goes to show CR isn't the exact measure. It still falls in the province of the DM to maintain the balance. (why do I feel like this is the right time to say "Use the force luke")