Minimum damage rule

[JamesonCourage]

Support the DM's decisions, for the reasons outlined here.

 

[delericho]

I agree with the majority - the minimum damage rule applies last, after all other modifiers have been applied.

A halfling in the party w/ a -1 STR mod scored a hit, then rolled a 1 on his damage die. Our party bard was singing at the time. The DM said that the character did 1 point of damage: 1 rolled, -1 penalty = 0 + 1 bard song = 1. The players thought this should have been 2: 1 rolled, -1 penalty = 0, minimum damage rule adjusted to 1 + 1 bard song = 2.

I agree with the DM: 1 point of damage in total.

We later had the same situation come up when he scored a crit, then rolled 1 twice on his damage dice. DM's ruling: 0 + 0 = 0, adjust to 1. Players' thinking: 0, adjusted to 1 + 0, adjusted to 1 = 2.

Again, I agree with the DM: 1 point of damage in total.

Of course, there's one final scenario: the halfling scores a crit while the Bard is singing. In this case, if the halfling rolls a '1' on both damage dice, the total damage is 2: 1+1 (die) + 1+1 (Bard music) + (-1 + -1) (Str penalty).

"... Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rollirng damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)"

Ironically, that's flavour text intended to help make the rules clear. As S'mon says, you're not actually hitting twice, because if you were then the target's DR would apply twice.

 

[N'raac]

I agree with the DM for the reasons above (and because that's the way my 8 STR halfling rolled his +1 Short Sword damage - 1d4 straight up). To accept the player's approach requires rules for which bonuses and penalties apply first.

1 - 1 for STR = 0, bumps to 1, + Bard bonus = 2, or

1 + 1 Bard bonus = 2 - 1 STR = 1

There are, to my knowledge, no rules for ordering these bonuses and penalties. That suggests they are all summed together to compute damage. The "minimum of 1" applies after that computation, so if bonuses and penalties net out to 0 or more, the minimum rule is never invoked.

 

[Tovec]

I agree with the DM for the reasons above (and because that's the way my 8 STR halfling rolled his +1 Short Sword damage - 1d4 straight up). To accept the player's approach requires rules for which bonuses and penalties apply first.

1 - 1 for STR = 0, bumps to 1, + Bard bonus = 2, or

1 + 1 Bard bonus = 2 - 1 STR = 1

There are, to my knowledge, no rules for ordering these bonuses and penalties. That suggests they are all summed together to compute damage. The "minimum of 1" applies after that computation, so if bonuses and penalties net out to 0 or more, the minimum rule is never invoked.

Actually there IS a rule for that. (Check the SRD via the link provided above.)

It is known as "apply all penalties" and if the result is 0 bump it up to 1.
Your way requires doing two different steps for something that doesn't need it. Why are you doing 1 - 1 = 0 (bumped to 1) plus 1? Why not ..

1 - 1(for str penalty) + 1(for bard) = 1
..which is the SAME as..
1 + 1(for bard) - 1(for str) = 1
As long as you do ALL the calculations together, one after another, and then apply the minimum 0 thing LAST it doesn't matter which way it is written. 1+1-1=1-1+1 but not 1-1 = 1(bumped) +1 (= 2) You are applying the bump too early.

@delericho
Right but DR works the same way that this min 0 thing works - in that you apply is versus the TOTAL. That is part of the reason for doing a crit in that way, so you do EXTRA damage instead of doing damage AGAIN.

I think that it should be (1-1+1)+(1-1+1)=2. I don't see how you get around that. As I pointed out the first time having that +1 from the bard makes no difference here. You would have an argument, as far as I see it, if the damage was (1-1)+(1-1)=0 but bumped up to 1. But it doesn't apply in this case because it comes out to 2 because the bonuses and penalties are applied twice. Heck, a lenient DM may allow the halfling to roll the damage on the crit - since it is technically supposed to be rolled twice anyway. In either case, in this situation with a 1-1+1 the result is 1, not 0, not 2. And when the x2 crit is applied it is bumped to 2 (without a re-roll, but with a confirmation).

 

[delericho]

@delericho
Right but DR works the same way that this min 0 thing works - in that you apply is versus the TOTAL. That is part of the reason for doing a crit in that way, so you do EXTRA damage instead of doing damage AGAIN.

Yes indeed. Wasn't that what I said?

 

[PureGoldx58]

I have a sneaking suspicion that your DM was treating the crit as (die roll) x 2 = (Your crit total) Which in that case, through the magic of you actually rolling a 0 it became 0x2=0 (bump) =1.

 

[xigbar]

In my games, we often get rid of the rule. It saves the hassle of the semantics these questions entail, and it's entirely realistic that your puny halfling with meager strength would simply be unable to harm a big tanky brute in physical way.

 

[Ahnehnois]

In my games, we often get rid of the rule. It saves the hassle of the semantics these questions entail, and it's entirely realistic that your puny halfling with meager strength would simply be unable to harm a big tanky brute in physical way.

Yeah, I can get behind the idea that the minimum damage rule isn't really necessary.

In fact, if you add in a blocking system or armor as DR, blows that deal no damage become a regular occurrence. There's nothing wrong with that.