Minion Fist Fights

[Andor]

Nothing about the minion rules mandates that mook status must be visible and obvious outside the context of combat.

Do they not? Unless you were a playtester then you, like me, have no idea what rules apply to minions outside of combat. If there is not a section in the DMG that explicitly changes their status as soon as the PCs interact with them, then I hold that the scenario I painted is not only likely but inevitable. (Incidently, for those claiming my example was ridiculous and full of hyperbole.. Seriously? How many GMs have you ever played with, 'cause I have to tell you I've run into several like that. Poor GMs abound.)

And leaving that aside, it is enought that their mook status is visible in combat, to disrupt my suspension of disbelief. Goblin warriors dropping in one hit, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, is not new, and Goblin minions are not the problem. No one is claiming they are. 21st level devil legionaire minions are a problem. Giant minions are a problem. Dragon minions are a problem.

Suddenly the battle of Gondor seems less impressive when we realize that Legolas did nothing extraordinary, that Mumakil was just a Colossal Minion.

 

[Mallus]

21st level devil legionaire minions are a problem. Giant minions are a problem. Dragon minions are a problem.

Hmmm, a class of D&D opponents, say like high-level minions, with tremendous destructive capabilities that can still be taken down by a lucky shot from a normal person, presumably while the stars of the show dealt with the real antagonist(s), should be considered a feature and not a bug.

Suddenly the battle of Gondor seems less impressive when we realize that Legolas did nothing extraordinary, that Mumakil was just a Colossal Minion.

Perhaps you could report back after playtesting something the size and scope of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields using the 4e rules, because right now your comparison between a portion of a novel and a D&D combat isn't particularly meaningful.

 

[Scribble]

And leaving that aside, it is enought that their mook status is visible in combat, to disrupt my suspension of disbelief. Goblin warriors dropping in one hit, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, is not new, and Goblin minions are not the problem. No one is claiming they are. 21st level devil legionaire minions are a problem. Giant minions are a problem. Dragon minions are a problem.

A 5th level fighter runs up on a 5th level commoner. What happens?

Minions to me at least represent the commoner better then the commoner ever did. Sure maybe there will be minion Dragons and minion Devils... But maybe not unless you decide you want them there.

They give you a good mix of commoner with soldier.

I think they do a great job of representing the common soldier. They arenn't Achilles... They're that soldier that runs up on Achiles and gets taken out on a side swipe.

Sure like any soldier they might kknow how to dish out some hurting... They just don't have that edge. That somthign that makes them the BBEG... So like any normal person a stab to the gut kills them.

So they don't take damage from a miss. It doesn't matter neither does the BBEG... His abuility to resist getting killed goes down though. So does the Minions... You just don't need to track it because chances are, you won't miss him again.

 

[Kishin]

But, barring text we haven't seen yet, that is EXACTLY the impression the rules give of how the 4e world works, and THAT is what I cannot wrap my mind around.



Why do you draw this conclusion? 'Cause that's exactly the impression I'm getting from the rules I've seen thus far. As opposed to 3x 1HD creatures who have a 'buffer' of 10 negative hit points to keep them from popping like soap bubbles every time they stub their toe, the 4 1hp minion with no healing surges and no negative hit points is a creature so fragile they make a 1e MU look like an action hero.

Stop thinking like a simulationist and this problem will go away.

Rules are not gameworld physics.

 

[Andor]

Perhaps you could report back after playtesting something the size and scope of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields using the 4e rules, because right now your comparison between a portion of a novel and a D&D combat isn't particularly meaningful.

Actually I was thinking of the movie. Particularly this scene. Legolas never interacts with a Mumakil in the book.

But no, hey, you're right. "We're fighting a 40' tall elephant thing? I throw a butterknife at it's toe." "Good call, it was a minion and it dies." sounds like a much more enjoyable game.

 

[Mallus]

But no, hey, you're right. "We're fighting a 40' tall elephant thing? I throw a shiruken at it's toe." "Good call, it was a minion and it dies." sounds like a much more enjoyable game.

To be more precise, that sounds like a game run by an idiot. The fact that minion rules can be used badly does not preclude them being used well. Bad games, you will always have with you...

And I'm not ruling out the potential for coolness in a scene featuring a shuriken killing a 40ft mammoth. There's coolness in there, I can feel it.

 

[Lacyon]

Actually I was thinking of the movie. Particularly this scene. Legolas never interacts with a Mumakil in the book.

But no, hey, you're right. "We're fighting a 40' tall elephant thing? I throw a butterknife at it's toe." "Good call, it was a minion and it dies." sounds like a much more enjoyable game.

Mumachilles' Toe?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

To be more precise, that sounds like a game run by an idiot. The fact that minion rules can be used badly does not preclude them being used well. Bad games, you will always have with you...

And I'm not ruling out the potential for coolness in a scene featuring a shuriken killing a 40ft mammoth. There's coolness in there, I can feel it.

And then there was the day in my Dragonstar Campaign where the Monk tripped the Elephant commanded by the evil Druid...

 

[Mallus]

And then there was the day in my Dragonstar Campaign where the Monk tripped the Elephant commanded by the evil Druid...

Did the elephant retaliate with a grenade? The bad guys always retaliated w/grenades in our Dragonstar campaign...

 

[DM_Blake]

This is a problem with misunderstanding hitpoints. They are entirely a metagame concept that are PC-Centric. They only exist when in combat with the PCs.

A minion can survive 30 stabs to the head if you want it to away from the PCs. When they are fighting it, they just happen to get the lucky blow in and it dies.

The entire purpose of hitpoints is to prevent anti-climactic deaths of important characters. The point of them is to avoid the situation where the PCs get lucky and kill something in one shot. Especially if you've hyped up the creatures/person as extremely dangerous before the PCs face them.

But minions are those monsters you don't care about. They don't need any buffer except what is required for them to fulfill their combat role: be a roadblock for the PCs movement.

So, you're saying that a party fighting a Minotaur and his 4 Minotaur Minions, manages to get 4 lucky blows and kill the 4 minions, but then all their luck runs out and they have to whittle down the real minotaur blow by blow by blow?

In other words, if the bad guy is important, it's NEVER possible to land a lucky blow (heck, even crits only mean you hit the same as a normal hit with a good damage roll), but everything else dies in one shot automatically?