Minion Fist Fights

[pemerton]

As long as we stick with the notion that 1 hit point of damage is a life-threatening wound (and therefore does not represent the injury of a stubbed toe or incidental cut, both of which can be painful but not life-threatening) then the mammoth can go until he receives a life-threatening hit. He ignores non-life threatening hits all day long, just like everybody else. What separates him from BeoMammoth the Mammoth Hero is that no matter how good a spear throw you make, that slippery cuss always seems to turn aside at the last minute, the spear either missing completely or perhaps sticking ineffectually in its ample mastodon rump. Hunting down that mammoth (Ol' Snaggletusk or whatever the tribe calls him) is the stuff of legend.

Korgoth, after 30 or so pages we've ended up on pretty much the same page!

 

[pemerton]

If you can accept devil minions but not mammoth minions, you're just one minion away from being a simulationist.

For the record, I've got nothing against mammoth minions, and think your vally-of-the-dinosaurs example shows how one might use them. I also thought your sample narration was great!

I don't see how this is any sort of counterexample to 4e's internal coherence. Nor does it establish that stale pastry is capable of killing a mammoth (but I'm not sure you were trying to prove the latter proposition).

the interesting thing is you could use the rules to explain how when a herd of Mammoth runs through a village, the villagers managed to kill a few.

Given that we know this to be possible (if not likely) without ever consulting the rules, we don't need the rules to tell us this. It is in the realm of GM backstory narration.

 

[Korgoth]

Korgoth, after 30 or so pages we've ended up on pretty much the same page!

It's nice to agree on things.

Despite how it may have seemed, I didn't start the thread with the intent to simply bag on 4E or some part thereof. I started it because, while I am open to liking 4E, I tend not to commit to something without being rigorously skeptical to start with. I was very skeptical of the minion rule, but I feel that it has survived my skepticism. And if it can survive that, my hat's off to it!

 

[Andor]

The argument that 4e design principles magically transform monsters into minions willy nilly based on what the story demands without any outside context of consistent gameplay is Lizard-logic at best.

8th level Angel of Valor. 88 hp.

21st level Angel of Valor. 1 hp.

 

[Lizard]

I don't see how this is any sort of counterexample to 4e's internal coherence.

It's not intended to be.

It's intended to show that if you can accept high-level minions in general (as opposed to, say, some sort of special 'minion rule' which might apply only to 1HD monsters in earlier versions of D&D), then saying "Well, bringing up mammoth minions is just being ridiculous and disruptive!" is not a supportable line of argument.

The dragon horde example for epic heroes also makes sense on that scale of play.

 

[AZRogue]

I would have no problem with mammoth minions. I would probably add one or two normal mammoths in there but the PCs skill would be high enough to puncture the eye, sever an artery, or otherwise kill the other mammoths (the minions). I think it could be an appropriate scenario, depending on the situation.

It's going to be interesting to see which monsters will have minion entries in the MM. I imagine that the criteria are those creatures that will attack in large groups. Either way, I think that whatever use people want for their minions would be acceptable. They're a shortcut, shorthand for those unlucky creatures that are going to fall before a PCs blade, while still posing a threat themselves.

 

[hong]

8th level Angel of Valor. 88 hp.

21st level Angel of Valor. 1 hp.

Contrary to popular belief, there is likely to be more than one angel of valor in a D&D universe, and hence nothing magically transforms into anything else.

 

[Rex Blunder]

This is D&D! Things don't magically transform!!

 

[Lizard]

Contrary to popular belief, there is likely to be more than one angel of valor in a D&D universe, and hence nothing magically transforms into anything else.

So you, too, are going with "Minionism is an innate condition" rather than "Minionism is a plot element"?

Is there a test for minionism? Do the minions survive it?

"Well, Mrs. Jones, we ran the standard minion test."
"And?"
"Well, your son died as soon as we took a blood sample, so the test was positive."

 

[Korgoth]

So you, too, are going with "Minionism is an innate condition" rather than "Minionism is a plot element"?

Is there a test for minionism? Do the minions survive it?

"Well, Mrs. Jones, we ran the standard minion test."
"And?"
"Well, your son died as soon as we took a blood sample, so the test was positive."

I think it's more like this:

"Well, your son died as soon as we stabbed him in the heart with a 12-inch blade. He in no way cheated death."