Minion Fist Fights

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The dragon horde example for epic heroes also makes sense on that scale of play.

Scale of play... I like that. It is a good ... well... simulationist approach maybe. (Pemerton will probably hesitate to agree, and possibly correctly so).

The Legion Devil Legionaire and the "normal" Legion Devil, or the Angel of Valor and the Angel of Valor Legionaire are probably good examples of this.

At the scale of heroic levels, these guys are "regular" monsters, pretty nasty and complex detailed. But at high levels, using their "reguler monster" description just is fiddly and not very satisfying. So, we use a different scale to describe them, and we get Minions.

Similar rules stuff seems to be done in supplements for mass-combat in D&D, but the scale is size, not level. Swarms and Mobs in 3.x also have some similarities to this. There is no way to "simulate" 1.000 insects crawling over a character that could lead to a satisfying play experience without a "Swarm" shortcut...


In Physical Sciences, similar methods are sometimes used. For simple, "human scale" stuff, using the Newtonian Laws for describing movements works very well. We don't really notice the differences. But once we try to describe near-light speed movements, or satellites circling Earth, we need the laws of relativity, since they describe the world more accurate. But it would be a big hassle trying to use them to calculate how long a train needs from Bremen to Frankfurt/Main, or a ferry from Dover to Calais. Or how long a sprinter needs for 100 meters...


Interesting side note: Some scientist actually entertain the thought that it's possible that we will be eventually forced to always use different "scales" of scientific laws. I think in the field of Solid State Physics, a lot of stuff can be easier described by ignoring the quantum mechanical rules of quarks & electroncs and formulating "higher level" laws. They might be emergent properties of the "real" laws, but they can be formulated and used to predict observations without ever relying on the smaller details...

 

[darkadelphia]

I just can't fathom why people are so bothered by these minion rules. It's one more tool in the box for DMs to make satisfying encounters. If you don't like it, don't use it, but in my mind, it's going to be a lot of fun. As far as the whole "are minions always minions or are they made minions by plot concerns," well, that's a silly argument. All the characters and monsters in the game are made whatever by plot/game/fun concerns. A PC from previous editions is not capable of enduring ten long sword wounds simply because he has 45 hit points--that's just silly. It represents, as has been said a hundred times, the ability to cheat death, etc.

It's a game--the whole idea of simulationism with D&D is so silly it boggles the mind. From beginning to end it's silly--there is realism in D&D only verisimilitude. People are flying and teleporting and wearing ioun stones, for crying out loud! Lighten up. If you don't like minions, fine--don't use them. Meanwhile, my players will be having a great time killing a horde of mastadon minions.

 

[Blackeagle]

I realize this discussion has been going on forever, but perhaps I can offer a new perspective. I teach some self defense stuff, so I've learned a bit about what it takes to stop a human attacker. There are essentially two ways to stop an assailant: physically incapacitating them (either through blood loss or destroying a vital part of the central nervous system) or by hurting them enough to persuade them to stop attacking you (a psychological stop). Self defense tends to emphasize the first method, because the second isn't a sure thing. Your assailant may be on drugs, or adrenaline, or just really determined.

This is what I think differentiates minions from heroes and non-minion NPCs. A hero has the psychological wherewithal to keep fighting even when he's injured. As long as he can physically keep fighting, he's going to do so. Same with non-minion NPCs. Minions, on the other hand, are not made of such stern stuff. As soon as they take a solid hit, even if it's not life threatening, they turn into a gibbering wreck. If they have the intelligence and willpower to actually do something, all they'll be doing is trying to staunch the bleeding and bind up their wounds.

The key is to think of what happens below 0hp differently for a minion than a non-minion. A non-minion with negative hit points is unconscious (or dead). A minion with negative hp may be unconscious or dead, but they may just be lying there in shock, or sitting there staring at his wound, or trying to staunch the flow of blood. They're both out of the fight, but one had to be physically battered into submission while the other was a wimp who gave up on the first hit. It's their psychological durability, rather than their physical durability that differs.

 

[Andor]

I just can't fathom why people are so bothered by these minion rules. It's one more tool in the box for DMs to make satisfying encounters. If you don't like it, don't use it, but in my mind, it's going to be a lot of fun. As far as the whole "are minions always minions or are they made minions by plot concerns," well, that's a silly argument. All the characters and monsters in the game are made whatever by plot/game/fun concerns. A PC from previous editions is not capable of enduring ten long sword wounds simply because he has 45 hit points--that's just silly. It represents, as has been said a hundred times, the ability to cheat death, etc.

It's a game--the whole idea of simulationism with D&D is so silly it boggles the mind. From beginning to end it's silly--there is realism in D&D only verisimilitude. People are flying and teleporting and wearing ioun stones, for crying out loud!

You do realize, don't you, that you are offering nothing more than your own opinion, and not stating fact. Some of us are perfectly capable of entertaining ideas that you find silly. Obviously the reverse is also true. Our suspension of disbelief breaks at different points. Strangely this does not serve as proof that either one of us is evil incarnate, nor that we are having badwrongfun.

 

[darkadelphia]

You do realize, don't you, that you are offering nothing more than your own opinion, and not stating fact. Some of us are perfectly capable of entertaining ideas that you find silly. Obviously the reverse is also true. Our suspension of disbelief breaks at different points. Strangely this does not serve as proof that either one of us is evil incarnate, nor that we are having badwrongfun.

That's kind of the point I'm trying to make--the whole game is full of silly things that allow us to have fun and minions are a new tool that not everyone has to use. It seems silly to get so upset about it. Perhaps it's my last sentence that implied badwrongfun--I have every intention of having a great time having my players kill mastadon minions. That doesn't at all take away from the fact that other groups will be having just as much fun ignoring the minion rules.

Another scenario made possible by minion rules--Giant Snakes on an Airship.

 

[hong]

You do realize, don't you, that you are offering nothing more than your own opinion, and not stating fact. Some of us are perfectly capable of entertaining ideas that you find silly. Obviously the reverse is also true. Our suspension of disbelief breaks at different points. Strangely this does not serve as proof that either one of us is evil incarnate, nor that we are having badwrongfun.

You are not having badwrongfun. You are failing to have badwrongfun. In fact, you are also failing to have goodrightfun. The way to start having fun, whether of the badwrong or goodright variety, is to stop thinking.

 

[hong]

So you, too, are going with "Minionism is an innate condition" rather than "Minionism is a plot element"?

It can be both, depending on who is asking.

Is there a test for minionism?

Why do you ask?

Do the minions survive it?

Does it matter?

"Well, Mrs. Jones, we ran the standard minion test."
"And?"
"Well, your son died as soon as we took a blood sample, so the test was positive."

See, the solution to midichlorians is not to think too hard about fantasy.

 

[Parlan]

You are not having badwrongfun. You are failing to have badwrongfun. In fact, you are also failing to have goodrightfun. The way to start having fun, whether of the badwrong or goodright variety, is to stop thinking.

And the way to ensure this, is to have Ninjas attack whenever the players even *think* of thinking.

Silly players. That'll learn 'em!

 

[pemerton]

Scale of play... I like that. It is a good ... well... simulationist approach maybe. (Pemerton will probably hesitate to agree, and possibly correctly so).

<snip>

At the scale of heroic levels, these guys are "regular" monsters, pretty nasty and complex detailed. But at high levels, using their "reguler monster" description just is fiddly and not very satisfying. So, we use a different scale to describe them, and we get Minions.

Scaling is one way to look at it. But as you predicated I do prefer the "plot element" analysis. I don't want to say that it's objectively and without a doubt correct - I haven't read the rules or spoken to the designers. I just think it makes sense of what we've seen, and what Rob Heinsoo said about design priorities.

 

[Rex Blunder]

See, the solution to midichlorians is not to think too hard about fantasy.

Or: How I Learned to Stop Thinking and Love the Hong

Spoiler

in before fnarr