Minion Fist Fights

[Storm-Bringer]

I really fear that Storm-Bringer and hong might eventually cause the use of the red font I so came to dread since the 4E announcement, but somehow, it's too entertaining to watch them...

Edit: Maybe that's fitting and on-topic for a thread called "Minion Fist Fights"?

At least one of us is getting something out of the exchange.

But, before I get in trouble, I will take this as a friendly tip, as I need those from time to time, and I will let Hong go about his merry way without me.

 

[Lizard]

Oh, it's an ATTRIBUTION thing. This puts all that hoo-ha about mammoth minions into a whole new light.

I can't parse that at all.

The only ppl who have been ignoring rules are those recreating 4E minions by ignoring the existing 3E framework.

You've apparently missed the many threads/posts where people are incredibly excited about the "freedom" 4e gives them, as if DMs haven't been handwaving rules/making up ad-hoc rules since, oh, 1974 or so.

... or you could just use 4E. Because apparently all that business about verisimilitude, challenge and elegance was really due to a lack of proper attribution, so a nice apology from WotC should suffice to put things right. Are you listening, WotC?

The frack?

Hong, either stop posting late at night or send me whatever you're on, because this entire post made no sense, even by Hong non-sequiter standards.

 

[Family]

...In conclusion, on examining the above post by CrackMonkey74, after carefully working my way through the haze of spelling errors (documented in section 3), abuse of capitalization (section 4), and general crimes against grammar and syntax (sections 7-8), I have demonstrated that, beneath it all, the work betrays the author's staggering ignorance of the history and working of the minion system. While the author's wildly swerving train of thought did at one point flirt with coherence, this brief encounter was more likely a chance event (see statistical analysis in table 5) than a result of even rudimentary lucidity.

- Summer Glau

 

[Lizard]

I'd advance the theory that if you require 20+ foot of supplementary material to remove the constraints from the game, then it's time to re-engineer the game.

Oh, wait....

The constraints were already removed. The 20+ feet of material is just implementations of ideas.

I'd say a system robust enough to handle confederate dinosaurs, magical mecha, galactic dragon empires, and arthurian elves -- using just the core rules as a base -- is a pretty darn good system, and any "re-engineering" of it better prove to be just as good and just as flexible, or it will hit the market with a resounding thud.

The folks designing 4e have a much bigger challenge than the folks designing 3e, mainly because 3e WAS designed, giving it an amazing edge on 2e. It wasn't very hard to make a better, more robust, more flexible system than AD&D 2e. It's a lot harder to make that kind of leap for 4e.

 

[La Bete]

It's not the RAW? Hate to break it to you but the first RAW is Rule 0

A house rule is RAW because of Rule 0? Try and make that fly in the Rules Forum. I triple-dog-dare ya.

 

[Mallus]

I'd say a system robust enough to handle confederate dinosaurs, magical mecha, galactic dragon empires, and arthurian elves -- using just the core rules as a base -- is a pretty darn good system.

It is.

But it's also a system in which the mechanics set out in the core books break down, in terms of both ease-of-use and the underlying math, at higher level. The existence of offshoot games w/wacky fluff like Dragonstar doesn't alter that.

And for my money, the best d20 game is one that made significant changes to the core mechanics: Mutants and Masterminds.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't really fault 3E for not having Minion rules. It was certainly not a problem percieved at the time that just using lower level characters might not lead to satisfying results.

I agree with Lizard that 3E design was a major improvement over AD&D design. That should never be forgotten.

But I do not think that 4E does need to make a similar leap in quality. It just needs to make noticeable improvements, fixing smaller and larger issues with 3E. And adding rules for something like Minions just seems like such a fix to me. It alone certainly would not be enough, but it's not the only thing.

Only if you expect the system to cover every possible circumstance that could ever come up.

Not every possible circumstance. But maybe some of the likely, interesting or generally useful ones? And in the end, it is not a "flaw" in the sense of "What were they thinking, those 3E designers? Everyone knows that Minions are a vital part of every good game system! Nobody even remotely competent would create a system without Minions!"
It's just that they didn't find it important, or the issue never came up. That happens. But it doesn't mean a system can be better for having such rules.

 

[Scribble]

I wonder how many of the people squeeling about the "freedom" 4e gives DON'T have (as I do) about twenty-odd feet of 3x supplements pulling the game in a thousand different directions. I guess if all you've seen is the SRD, 3e looks pretty constrained. Much like, I suppose, my problem with 4e -- when I look at all I have for 3e, it's hard to see how 4e could replace it for at least a year, and that's only if the third party folks really ramp it up.

For me that "freedom" that 3e gave was a blessing and a curse. Sure, for those that had the time, you could do a TON of stuff with it... But for DM's like me that barely have enough time to play the game let alone prep it?

I just don't have the time to dig through 20+ feet of gaming material to find that feat or power or spell I need, let alone time to apply the template and do the math to check to make sure it didn't skew the CR too much... My games tended to be a bunch of ad-hok monsters, and flubbing at the table when I realized the CR was off...

Things I find give me "freedom" in 4e:

1. Special powers, Feats and spells have been rolled into one or two things for Monsters. Changing the monster's abilities will be quicker/simpler. Find one that is relaitvely similar swap it out, GO. Really it's the fact that they also don't stack or rely on other abilities that helps the most.

2. Changing a monster's power level is easy. So that means I'll do it by the rules more often, and not have to flub to make up for not ad-hoking correctly.

3. WOTC has done the work for a lot of the things I wish I had the time for in 3e. (Different power levels, trimming the powers down to usable ones, etc...)

4. Monsters now have race + class which is consistent with the rest of the game, which really does change things for me. It makes things work smoother in my eyes.

True, it won't have as many options at start as 3e had. It will just be easier for me to make use of the ones it has now, and the ones it will have in the future then 3e ever was. (And if I can't make use of them, then they just sit there mocking me!)

 

[Family]

Nor do I think it's desireable to make any previously dangerous foe into mooks just because the party has a few more levels.

There are some Rivers you don't want to cross.

 

[Lacyon]

The folks designing 4e have a much bigger challenge than the folks designing 3e, mainly because 3e WAS designed, giving it an amazing edge on 2e. It wasn't very hard to make a better, more robust, more flexible system than AD&D 2e. It's a lot harder to make that kind of leap for 4e.

About the only thing they could do to compete with 3E for me is adding balance.

Which they seem to be doing just fine.